Heroes of Change: with Rebecca Crowder of Lily’s Place

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A Sit-Down with Rebecca Crowder of Lily’s Place

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As Part of the Heroes of Change Podcast

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Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. This is Jeremy Turner, Founder and Managing Director of EPIC Mission and I’ll be your host here on the podcast. We are highlighting the trials, victories and applied wisdom of our community change agents, unsung heroes, and those who empowered them to be the change across Appalachia and beyond. We seek to inspire and equip everyday heroes just like you to take on our greatest challenges because, together we are the change. Today it’s my supreme pleasure to welcome – I’m not going to say old friend because that would be rude – longtime friend, Rebecca Crowder, to the show. Before we get to her, I want to read just a quick snippet about her and then we’re going to hit her with some questions; let her talk about herself and the work she does.

Rebecca Crowder grew up in Huntington, West Virginia and she continues to reside there with her husband and two children. Rebecca has been the Executive Director of Lily’s Place for close to five years and has 10 years of experience in recovery administration and is responsible for overseeing the programs and strategic plan of Lily’s Place. Rebecca works with the board of directors and leads staff in order to fulfill the mission of Lily’s Place and is involved in community outreach efforts, especially neonatal abstinence syndrome, or NAS, education and awareness. Mrs. Crowder is also the primary contact for all inquiries concerning the Lily’s Place replication plan. Rebecca was instrumental in the opening of Recovery Point West Virginia, a program that offers recovery services to those suffering from substance use disorder at no cost. Rebecca is the author of the children’s book, Little Me, and all proceeds from the sales of this book go to Lily’s Place. Cool stuff.

Rebecca Crowder, Director of Lily’s Place:

Thank you.

Jeremy:

You’re welcome. So, you know, these days everybody’s got a glassy headshot and a slipped bio, but the purpose of this podcast is to go beneath all that stuff and really learn more about the people and the work that’s being done out there. So if you would take a minute, let’s go beyond the bio and tell us a little bit about you and the work you do. What else would you like us to know?

Rebecca:

Well I guess I’ll just give you a little bit of information about exactly what Lily’s Place. Lily’s Place is the first neonatal abstinence syndrome center in the country, but what that means is we care for babies who are born prenatally exposed to drugs in a very unique setting. We provide the same care that happens in the hospital, but we’re just doing it in a different atmosphere and that gives us a lot of opportunities to really work with the families at a different level. We are striving to always do more. We have wrap-around services for the parents. We provide peer support, counseling, social work, case management, and we are actually getting ready to open our Lily’s Place family center. This is a behavioral health center, but we don’t want people to think this is just for Lily’s Place families because it’s not. This is actually going to be a center that is open to the whole community and the services are not just going to focus on recovery. There’s going to be services for people also who have never had a substance use disorder. So we’re really excited about branching out and meeting more needs in the community.

Jeremy:

Love it. So I asked you prior to this to send over a couple of pictures of yourself and the work and I saw that picture of the family center and I thought, “Wow, that’s cool.” This is something new that I get to learn about today, so I appreciate that. I love that you all continue to innovate within the space and do things that maybe aren’t being done elsewhere and set a standard for how people are cared for across our country, so it’s good stuff. So one question I want to ask and cause I think this is important. So you use the phrasing of these babies that are exposed to, not addicted. Can you take a minute and talk about the difference there and cause I know that’s a big deal and so I want to make sure we get that out there to people that are listening.

Rebecca:

Yes. babies are not born addicted. Addicted is applied to a behavior and a choice to reuse. And yes, substance use disorder is a disease, but it’s an action that they’re taking; these babies don’t have a choice. They’re not taking an action. They’re not addicted to the medications, they’re exposed. And so we have to care for them in a medical way to help them detox from the medications if their parents were abusing. And with that, after they’ve gone through the process, they are free from these drugs. Yes, they will continue to have an effect for a while, but in no way are they actually addicted to the drugs.

Jeremy:

Excellent. Thanks. I appreciate that. Again, we’ve known each other for a while and I’ve had the pleasure of working with you, and so I wanted to make sure we got that point out there right away. I know it’s a big deal. So through this podcast we’ll dig into a little bit more about you and the work that you do. And really this is about you and telling your story in hopes that someone hearing this might be inspired. I was saying offline before we got started today, you know, having grown up here in Huntington, I don’t really recall people talking about doing big things and changing the world and I think that’s in large part probably like that across Appalachia. Maybe we’re looking for someone outside of Appalachia to inspire us or we’re waiting for someone else to do something big. I don’t think that we have to look for someone outside of Appalachia to do big things. We’re doing it here already. And so I’ll get off my soapbox now, but inspiration is a huge deal. Each of us needs to find our own inspiration and for whatever it is that we’re doing. And so I’d really love to know from your perspective as you reflect back on life, who inspired you growing up and where do you find or what inspired you and where do you find inspiration now?

Rebecca:

That’s actually a very easy question. My mother inspired me. She was always, for as long as I can remember, involved in the community, in doing things to make things better. When I was a child, she used to throw a fundraiser every year for St. Jude. She was a 4H leader. She was very involved in the community center from the time I was young up until they closed it a couple of years ago. She has just always volunteered and used her own time and resources to do things for other people and she was my role model. So I have mimicked what I’ve watched her do.

Jeremy:

I love it. And I think that’s an important part to this as I said a minute ago, many people look outside of the home or outside of the state or on some national stage to find inspiration and you know, here with you, you have it, you had it in your house, all you had to do is look over. That’s really cool. What about now, where do you find inspiration now? Because the work that you do is not easy, right? There’s nothing easy about it and it’s a tough subject. So where do you find inspiration now?

Rebecca:

I find inspiration really in just other people in our community. There are a lot of people doing what I’m doing or doing things in different ways. I think that one of the things I’ve noticed about our community is everyone, a great deal of people come together to make change. And I think that it’s easy to find the motivation when there are so many people doing so much. And I’m greatly motivated by the people I work with. They tend to always go above and beyond. So I think that just being around them and seeing their passion for what we do motivates me.

Jeremy:

That’s good. And you know, you do have an amazing team over there. Just some really good human beings that work their tails off to make a difference. And like I said, a really tough space. So that’s really cool. 

Rebecca:

Give your heart, turn on a light. It’s a little dark in here. I see a little bit better.

Jeremy:

Let there be light. So I think visioning is really important to get a feel for what it is we’re seeking to accomplish in life or in business or whatever it is that we’re doing. So take a minute and think about and share – let’s fast forward 10, 20, 30 years, and you’re looking back on the work that you’ve done. What sort of legacy do you want to leave behind?

Rebecca:

Wow.

Jeremy:

What change are you fighting for as well? It’s really a two part question.

Rebecca:

Well, it’s been an honor just to be a part of Lily’s Place and being the first neonatal abstinence syndrome center in the country; it’s a part of history. But you know, we don’t want recognition for being the first, we just want there to be a model that becomes this network of opportunities across the country for babies and their families to get the services that we offer here. So our legacy will be the beginning of this model, the beginning of making sure that the wrap-around services are being met along with the care of the baby and keeping that family unit together. So I think just, we are contacted all the time by people in other states, other parts of the country who are interested in our replication plan, which actually has admissions, but together for us did a wonderful job with our replication plan. And people are constantly seeking that. And I think that that just shows that this is something that is going to carry on around the country. That it’s something that is going to become a standard model of care. And that’s really all we want to see.

Jeremy:

Good. Yeah, I guess the unfortunate thing is that centers like Lily’s Place are needed. The fortunate thing is that there is a model in place that others can duplicate talk. People listening may not really know what the replication plan is. Obviously you and I know what it is because we did it. Can you talk a little bit about what that replication plan is? What that means?

Rebecca: 

Yes. The replication plan is actually a book in your hand that tells you how we did it from start to end, where we’re at now. It includes how to put together your board of directors, what to look for, how to begin the early process, but it also takes you all the way through what positions you need. Our rules and regulations, our policies and procedures. But it just gives you the tools to start at the very beginning of wanting to create a center like ours to the end of knowing how to run it and operate it once it’s open. So it takes you through all the steps and it is actually available in different pieces based on where you’re at already and where you’re looking to go with your facility.

Jeremy:

Very cool. So those who are listening and when the video of this comes out, those who are watching, if you believe there’s a need for an NIS center in your community and you’re looking for help, then you can absolutely reach out to Lily’s Place. And Rebecca, as I said in the opening, will be your primary point of contact and you can find out what information is available in an option that may fit your needs. So you may have heard me use this phrase and, it’s the name of the podcast itself. It’s the tagline for my company, “Guiding the Heroes of Change.” When you hear that phrase, Hero of Change or Heroes of Change, what does that mean to you?

Rebecca:

Well, though it was an honor to be a part of this podcast, when I hear the word “hero” applied to me, it’s very uncomfortable. I feel like there are so many people in our community doing wonderful things and they just haven’t had the opportunity to get the recognition that Lily’s Place has for what we are doing. So I think that there are heroes all around us when we applied in the way you were doing and it’s just people who are stepping up doing the work, even though it takes them out of their comfort zone, they’re doing it anyways and making a difference.

Jeremy:

So why do you think it’s important for everyday people like you and I who, you know, we could choose to go do other things, but we choose to do tough things. Why do you think it’s important for everyday people to step up and go do stuff?

Rebecca:

Well, someone’s got to do it, it might as well be us. But yes, I think that, you know, if everyone just sits back because it’s going to be hard, nothing’s ever going to change. Nothing’s ever going to happen. So why not be the person that makes the change? Why not be the person that’s upset? You will never regret helping someone.

Jeremy:

I agree. I figured that that question might get you a little feisty. So that’s why I asked it.

I completely agree. Love it. So, people out there you know, when you’re looking for something to do, find the thing that ignites a passion in you and gets you feisty, too. Because this kind of work is not easy and if you’re not passionate about it, any excuse that comes along, we’ll do any excuse to quit or stop or walk away, we’ll do. So, find something you’re passionate about. I’ve said it a couple of times and I’m not trying to belabor the point, but this work is tough. Your work, my work, work in general, when will you feel like you’ve succeeded in the work that you’re doing with the lowest place?

Rebecca:

I already feel like I’ve succeeded. Helping one person is a success and I’m fortunate enough to know that the work I do has helped many people, so I’ve already met there.

Jeremy:

That’s awesome. So now it’s just everything’s cake, right?

Rebecca:

Oh yeah. So easy from here.

Jeremy:

So yeah, it’s, you know, again, there’s barriers and roadblocks and such and tough times. When have you felt like giving up and why did you keep going?

Rebecca:

I don’t think I’ve ever felt like giving up. That’s just not part of my personality. I tend to, when I see a challenge, persist until I’ve met it. So I’ve never actually had that feeling of giving up.

Jeremy:

That’s cool. And you know, you and I’ve talked about this before, about the need for self-care, for rest and relaxation and getting away and recharging. Where do you go to rest and relax and get reinvigorated?

Rebecca:

Actually, I have to credit you for a lot of what I do because when you gave me that advice, I was not managing self-care very well at all. So, I do appreciate that. Really, my sanctuary is my home. Being with my husband and my children definitely helps me distress and reset.

Jeremy:

So do you have hard boundaries that you try to keep in place? So that work is work and home is home?

Rebecca:

I do actually. I have never put my email on my phone. So if I do want to check my email once I’m home, I have to get the computer out and do the work login. That might keep me from doing it on some occasions, so that is one of the boundaries I’ve set. Obviously if a situation occurs in the evening I need to handle, someone calls me, I take care of it, but I try my best not to work once I’m home.

Jeremy:

I think that, you know that again, there’s going to be some really cool lessons I think that bubble up to the surface from our conversation today. Having those boundaries so that you have a place to go because there’s a misbelief I think that you know, trying to get creative and do really cool, innovative things and overcome challenges. Overcoming challenges comes from this persistent grind of just all day 24/7 going down a problem. But studies actually show that creativity comes from points of relaxation. So if you’re always on-the-go and you don’t have time to step away and rest and relax and reinvigorate, you may not have those answers that you need may not percolate. 

Rebecca:

Even the way you structure your work day, like you have, I know that you at EPIC Mission, you do a lot of teaching individuals how to manage their day and their work. And one of the advice you always gave me was about when to check my email. Something as simple as changing my structure in that has taken a lot of stress out of my day.

Jeremy:

Good. I appreciate that.

It’s important. I think I’ve shared this before that I’m not necessarily called to do what you’re doing and that’s not really my place, but if I can work behind the scenes and help people like you do what you do better, more efficiently, more effectively, keep from burning out and then that’s all I need. I don’t really need to be on the forefront. So I’m glad that things are working. That’s cool. Where do you see Lily’s Place going from here? You know, you’ve talked a little bit about the family center. What else? What else do you see?

Rebecca:

To be honest, I can’t predict where we’re going to go. We just see a need or a gap in services. We try to fill it. I do know that we are looking at, like I’ve mentioned earlier, some things that aren’t directly related to an individual in substance use disorder. We’re really researching ways to better serve our children in our community. Those who have been affected by the epidemic of addiction have issues with attachment in and out of the system or just seeing their parents go through what they have, even if they’re in recovery now. So we want to create a level of care for children that maybe isn’t being met right now. We also want to branch out and serve individuals who are just in need. I’ve spoken with a lot of people who needed counseling services and there was a three month wait for counseling that had nothing to do with recovery. And so that’s just not acceptable. People need to access care when they need it. So we’re hoping to be a part of that solution as well.

Jeremy:

I love it and, and I’ve seen that in my daily life as well, seeing, you know, cause just like you, I interact with a lot of people and I’ve met folks that said, “I recognize that I need behavioral health care. I’m at a point where I’m ready to accept that and then I go to try to get it and it’s three months, it’s four months.” I’ve met people who were in crisis who still just could not get the care that they needed at the moment. And you know, so the fact that you’re not just sitting on your laurels and saying, “okay, so we’re doing some cool things, congratulations to us, we’re amazing.” If anything else comes up, somebody else can handle it. Instead you’re saying, “Well, that’s great that we’re doing these things, but we recognize there are other things that need done. So how might we fill those spaces as well?” So I think that’s commendable.

Rebecca:

Thank you.

Jeremy:

You’re welcome. And you know, for those that are listening, organizations that stagnate will shrivel up and die. So organizations must continue to evolve what they do and how they do it to meet new needs in new ways and Lily’s Place is a great model for that. So if you’re not familiar, before we end today, I’m going to ask Rebecca how people can learn more about Lily’s Place and I would recommend that you definitely go do that. Learn more about them, whether you’re working in that space or not. I think there’s something to learn there, for sure. So talk to that passion and motivation and inspiration. Why do you feel so compelled to do what you do to work in this space that you’re working in? What compels you to work in that space?

Rebecca:

That’s a very difficult question because I don’t know. I really have no idea what, I can’t put my finger on a particular thing. I grew up in a home where I was never really touched by individuals with substance use disorder. I was very sheltered and I ended up in some life circumstances that took me to needing a job and I was kind of landed in the seat depth at Recovery Point without looking for this particular job. And I knew nothing about recovery at the time. Absolutely nothing. I learned while I was there on the job, but I was hired in development for them, just help them financially become able to open the facility. And that was the game changer for me. After that I was really drawn into wanting to help. It seems like my entire career worked in some sort of nonprofit, some sort of community giving-back situation, but once I really was seeing what was going on, I really just wanted to make a difference. I don’t know what anything besides God that put me in the position I’m in now of where I am.

Jeremy:

Well, that’s enough, right?

Rebecca:

Yes, absolutely.

Jeremy:

So, again, I think another cool lesson is that too often, I don’t know about you, but growing up, there was still this sort of linear path that we were taught; go to school, get good grades, go on and get a job and then retire in 40 years because the generations before us, that’s a lot of what happened. But just hearing your story, you found yourself in a particular spot in life that you took a chance, took a job, and you’ve worked in a couple of different places now, still within the nonprofit sector. And so, had you followed that linear path of get one job and keep it forever, you wouldn’t be where you are now. Right? So I think our environment is changing a little bit and you know, again, those that are listening, look for the lessons where you can find them at each little chapter of your journey and let each chapter form the next.

The space that you’re operating in, I mean, how anyone could not be compelled to love on and care for babies you know, is beyond me. But, let’s talk about just in general, perhaps with the exposure, addiction, recovery space. A lot of times it seems to me that people are unsympathetic to the needs of people within that space. If you would take a minute and talk about why people should care about the work that you do and the population you serve. And especially as you’re looking to get to expand beyond caring for babies.

Rebecca:

Well that one for me is pretty simple. Matthew 25:40, “Those who do for the least of these also do for Me.” It’s not just about the population we’re serving; it’s about we should not just want good for ourselves, we should want good for everyone. And I think if you see someone in struggle, you help, period. Everyone deserves the same treatment, the same respect, the same honor. And that’s just how it should be.

Jeremy:

Good. Nice, clean, simple answer. So, again, anyone listening and when you’re watching you don’t really need any of these big grandiose reasons to go help, just get up and go do right. So what would you like others to take away from your story and why should listeners be encouraged?

Rebecca:

I think they should take away that I’m happy in my work. I’m happy with what I do. And it’s not because of some huge paycheck or because of it, a ton of benefits because I work in a nonprofit. That’s not what I’m getting. I believe that when you’re doing something that you can feel good about, at the end of the day, that’s what matters. Yes, I have hard days. Yes, I have stress. But the takeaway should really be that anyone can step up and make a difference. And it’s not just about helping those people. You’re helping yourself in the process, too.

Jeremy:

I think that’s a good point, is in the nonprofit space, there’s so many “almost martyrs,” right? People that just give and give and give of themselves and it’s not really a good situation or relationship there that they’re in with their positions. And so finding a role like yours where it’s good for you, too, and there’s nothing wrong with it being good for you. It should be actually because you’re giving so much of yourself. So you know, again, those people that are listening to and watching, find something that is so good for you that you’re willing to go do it. Because unfortunately, until we can get this change, nonprofit pay benefits don’t quite match an open market. But maybe we could through some conversations in the future, we can change that. That needs to change. For sure.

Rebecca:

That’d be nice.

Jeremy:

Yeah. Yeah. And I won’t get on that topic because I’ll be on that all day and you probably wouldn’t get another word in. So I won’t do that to you. You’ve used the words or the phrasing, “make a difference” a couple of times. How do you think your work is making a difference in you specifically, and then, perhaps you as in Lily’s Place, how are we making a difference?

Rebecca:

Oh, me specifically. I think that I don’t just keep it within the doors of Lily’s Place. I don’t just keep it within these walls and the people we serve. I try to step back out and do whatever I can in whatever areas I can. Sometimes I might be that person who just sees someone in the parking lot of McDonald’s and I stop and, you know, ask them why they’re in this situation, buy them breakfast, say a prayer with them. I think that you need to be willing to put yourself out there, to put yourself in what may be an uncomfortable situation to help somebody who looks like they’re in need. With Lily’s Place specifically, we’re making a difference because there are a lot of organizations that help individuals who are the population we serve. However, no matter how many places there are, there’s still a need. So Lily’s Place is meeting part of those needs and we’re constantly evolving to do more to make it better. And so I think we’re making a difference because we are staying up on what are best practices, what is the new medical research out there, and we’re just making sure that long-term, we’re providing the best care possible to also continue a follow-up with these families so they don’t get long later. Individuals will find recovery, they will do well for a long period of times and sometimes relapse happens. And if we continue to follow-up when we stay in their lives and we continue to have contact, maybe we can help them before that happens. So I think we make a difference because we strive to work with the family as a whole and keep them healthy and happy long-term.

Jeremy:

That’s good. Yeah. I remember I was talking before about the case management need out there that you know, many, many times people go in and they receive services, some form of care and it’s somewhat transactional. They go in, they get it and they go back to their lives, to the environment, to the people, to the neighborhoods to the same things where they found themselves abusing or using drugs. So, how important is that case management aspect or that follow-up care to overall success and what you’ve seen?

Rebecca:

I think it’s incredibly important. We’ve been fortunate enough to where we develop strong enough relationships with the families when they go through here that our social worker will actually be the one that gets the call from them saying “I’m struggling, I need help.” I think that it is very important that they have that. And there have been a lot of new programs such as the case navigators do Healthy Connections,that has really began offering that at a higher level. So, I think all of those organizations have seen that this is a need and we’re all trying to meet it appropriately.

Jeremy:

And how important is it because you mentioned other organizations and other people within this perceived ecosystem. How important is it to form great relationships and feel free to shout out to any of those great relationships that you have in the community with other organizations or individuals.

Rebecca:

I think that we have a lot of great relationships. We collaborate with the MOMS Program, Cabell Huntington Hospital, the NTU, the neonatal therapeutic unit  Cabell Huntington Hospital; They provide the same care for these babies as Lily’s Place does. We work with Marshall University. I think that the importance is you have to work with different organizations because we can’t meet every need ourselves. It’s just not possible. We recently hired a new medical director and she comes from Valley Hills, so you can see that it seems like everybody has a part of the solution here. We’re all trying to work together. We have to have those collaborators because there might be something we’re good at, but they’re better at. So we need to utilize them for that, those things.

Jeremy:

Very cool. It seems like you found sort of your lane, you know, the things that you do exceedingly well and you’re not just willing, but you actually do pursue partnering with other organizations so that you can stay in your lane doing your thing. Others do their thing, the thing or the couple of things they’re incredibly good at. And then overall you create this holistic system of wrap-around care. That’s so important.

Rebecca:

Absolutely.

Jeremy:

So you’ve been in your current role about five years, give or take. Let’s fast forward or rewind to day one. What would you tell yourself now or you know, you can go to another time in your life. What kind of advice would you give to your younger self, whether it’s the just beginning executive director at Lily’s Place, or at another time in your life?

Rebecca:

I would tell myself to stress less. I have always struggled with anxiety and sometimes, I’ll let that get the best of me. So I would tell myself, “Do not be anxious about anything. It doesn’t do me any good.” I have finally gotten to a point where I can kind of harness that and not let it take me over. But in my past, I feel like, you know, that hindered me sometimes. So, I think that would be the most important advice I would give myself to just focus on the positive and move forward in faith and know that I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing.

Jeremy:

I think that that’s powerful advice. And again, it’s part of the whole reason for this podcast is to have just real conversations like this because what I see, these types of conversations aren’t really being had a whole lot, you know, where we talk about, “Oh well, I struggle with stress or anxiety” or “I failed or in this particular way” or “I just really wasn’t particularly comfortable.” I put myself in uncomfortable situations of what we see too often is the glossy version of “Yep, everything’s great, everything’s perfect, everything’s amazing, no issues.” And unfortunately, we don’t get to be real and transparent and vulnerable. So, I appreciate you opening up and sharing that because these are the types of conversations we need to have.

Jeremy:

So I can keep you here all day. I don’t want to do that because that’d be wrong of me. I’d be selfish. A couple things as we move towards wrapping up, what final advice might you give for someone out there who’s listening or watching when the video is made available? Who, let’s say they have an idea for a new organization or they just they feel like they’re being togged into a particular direction towards working with an organization or working in a space, but they’re pretty unsure. Maybe feeling hesitant. Any advice or words of wisdom you might give to someone out there?

Rebecca:

I would definitely tell them that if they have an idea, if they are feeling like they’re being led to do something, definitely check it out. You know, see what the possibilities are. I’m not advising anyone to dive head first into something; do your research and start talking to people you can collaborate with, see how they feel about it, how they might be able to help you plan it. And don’t be afraid to try, but be smart about it. You know, do it in a manner to where you’re setting yourself up for success. Do it in a way to where you have support as you start. We can’t do it alone. Lily’s Place started with an idea. They had to reach out and get a lot of support and a lot of help before it ever came to fruition. So I think it’s just a matter of knowing that you can do it. Just do it in a smart way.

Jeremy:

Good, good. I appreciate that. So how can people listening learn more about you, the work that you’re doing at Lily’s Place, and then potentially come alongside you and help you in some fashion? What would that look like?

Rebecca:

Well, they can learn more about Lily’s Place at our website. Lilysplace.org. They can also call and have a conversation with me. I’m always happy to talk to people. They can call and ask me any questions they have. You know, and we have a lot of people who work with us in different ways. Obviously time, talent, treasure; they’re all important. We have wonderful volunteers who do a variety of things for us. Some come in and cuddle, rock the babies, some help us with office work, some help with cleaning. There’s a lot of things that we require to be done that we can’t afford to pay someone to do. So those volunteers are vital. Talents. Everyone has something to offer. And everyone has something different to offer and we have a lot of needs and you never know, your talent might be something we’re in search of and treasure. Money is always an issue in the nonprofit world for any nonprofit. And for Lily’s Place, last year, 50% of our budget came from fundraising and grant writing. So we definitely could not make any of this happen without the support of our community. They’ve been very generous to us and we appreciate everyone who has given us anything.

Jeremy:

Awesome. And you used to,  I don’t think I’ve seen that lately, I haven’t looked. You used to have a list on your website of physical items that you are in need of donation as well. Is that still happening?

Rebecca:

Yes, we still have that. We have a list, we even have a wishlist on Amazon you can go to, but we do have a list of items that we need.

Jeremy:

Very cool. Awesome. Well, you know, if anyone listening, if you feel compelled to jump in and help with this mission that Lily’s Place is on, I encourage you to go learn more and see how it is that you can help. Whether it’s helping Lily’s Place or another organization that’s operated in this space. 

Very cool. Well, I think that brings us to the end of our time today. I appreciate you being here with me today, Rebecca, and it’s always good to catch up and I hope we have an opportunity to catch up again sooner than later.

Rebecca:

I thank you. I appreciate it.

Jeremy:

Absolutely. So that’s all for this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. We hope that you’ve been inspired by something you heard today because together, we are the change. 

Tune in next time as we dig into the story of another Hero of Change and learn what they do, how they do it, and most importantly, why they do what they do. Take care, Stay encouraged, and we’ll look forward to seeing you next time on the Heroes of Change.[/fusion_toggle][/fusion_accordion][/fusion_builder_column][/fusion_builder_row][/fusion_builder_container]

Heroes of Change: with Mike Green of Mountain State Capital

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A Sit-Down with Mike Green of Mountain State Capital

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As Part of the Heroes of Change Podcast

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Jeremy Turner, Founder and Managing Director of EPIC Mission:

Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. This is Jeremy Turner, Founder and Managing Director of EPIC Mission and I’ll be your host here on the podcast. We are highlighting the trials, victories, and applied wisdom of our community change agents, unsung heroes, and those who empower them to be the change across Appalachia and beyond. We seek to inspire and equip everyday heroes just like you to take on our greatest challenges because together, we are the change. 

Today I’m thrilled to welcome my friend and a changemaker, Mike Green to the show. Before we get to him, I’m going to read a quick snippet just to give you a taste of who he is and what he’s about. So, Mike Green of Morgantown, West Virginia serves as chairman of the West Virginia Growth Investment Fund and is the Managing Director of Mountain State Capital, providing mentorship and funding to entrepreneurs and early stage companies.

He began serving on the West Virginia Board of Education in 2009 and served as Board President from July 2015 to January 2017. He serves on many boards including the West Virginia High Technology Consortium Foundation and the Appalachian Investors Alliance. He earned a bachelor’s degree in mathematics from Boston University and a master’s degree in numerical science from Johns Hopkins University. He began his career in 1969 as a mathematician, crypt analyst, and software developer at the National Security Agency. In 1979, he moved to the private sector and held senior executive positions with a number of successful technology companies. So good stuff. And I welcome Mike. I didn’t happen to know you a little beyond what’s printed here, and so my hope is that we can now go beyond the glossy headshot and the prepared bio to learn a little bit more about you and the work that you do. So, what should we know about you?

Mike Green, Managing Director of Mountain State Capital

Well, thank you, Jeremy, I’m delighted to be with you, my friend. What you’re doing and your mission is just really critical to all of us here in Appalachia and I’m just delighted to be part of it. I’ve gotten to know you over the last several years, so it’s a pleasure to be with you today. 

What about me? You could never in a million years ever figure out the script or write a script that would say how a kid from the Bronx, New York, which is where I’m originally from, would end up and I don’t mean to end up in any negative way, would end up in West Virginia. But without sounding completely arrogant, if I could live anywhere in the world, I still choose to live here in West Virginia because it became my home. It was 1995; we bought our first piece of property here. 

When I’ve tried to retire a number of times, I decided, “Hey, this is the place I want to live” and more importantly where I wanted to try to give back to the community. I’ve been very, very fortunate in my career, Jeremy, because most of the time I got a lot of people who go out there and they’re there, they’re able to find success and wealth, but they don’t give back. I’ve pretty much decided many, many years ago when we’ve had some successes that it’s important to give back to the community. And in all the companies that I worked with and worked for, I preach that to all my employees and all the people who work closely with me that you’re nobody until and unless you start giving back to the community and giving back from the people who help get you where you are. So very much dedicated in my life over the last, certainly the last 20 years here in West Virginia, for 25 years now, really to focus on what’s great about the community here, not only in West Virginia, but Greater Appalachia, and how we as citizens can make this even a better place to live, to raise our families, keep our kids here, educate them better, create great companies and improve the overall life of the great people here in this region. So that’s what my dedication has been over the last several years.

Jeremy:

Love it. And you know, we’re pleased to welcome you, as you’re now a West Virginian. After 10 or 12 years, you’ve been adopted, so you’re part of the mix.

Mike:

Definitely a part of West Virginia, that’s for sure.

Jeremy:

Has a way of getting in you and sticking with you.

Mike:

Yeah, it definitely does. Like I say, you couldn’t predict where I would be today based on where I came from. I mean, I grew up in a relatively, I don’t want to say a poor community, in the East Bronx of New York. I was fortunate to get a good education in the New York Public School System and then very fortunate to be able to go to college. My parents scraped enough money together to get me through college. Of course at that time in the ‘60s, I usually say the 1960s, instead of the 1860s, I’m not that old! The 1960s were also dealing with war, I had to put some time in the service as well. When I came out of the service, I was fortunate enough to have this opportunity to work for the National Security Agency and it fits into my lifestyle because most of my life, I’ve always been a problem-solver and when I got to the National Security Agency with a degree in mathematics, I thought I was a mathematician, but what I really realized at the time was that I’m more of a problem-solver and so they put me quickly into a program to become a crypt analyst, someone who breaks codes and works on that and it was the most fun job I’ve ever had in my life.

I told one of my friends the other day, I said, “If I had the opportunity, I would probably still be working there because it was so much fun and so exciting to be able to work on some of these issues that are very, very critical to the world.” When you have people’s lives in your hands and things that I was doing as a crypt analyst and later on as a software developer to create systems so that our analysts in the field could know what’s going on in the world and then providing appropriate intelligence to, to our president and others. That’s a very, very critical job. 

So here we are many, many years later and I was fortunate to have that background, but I took that kind of philosophy with me everywhere I went. And that is I try to look at situations to analyze them and then from that, okay, hit the pause button and that’s one of the things I’m going to do in my life before I die. I’m going to write a book called Pause, P-A-U-S-E because if each of us would pause once in a while and reflect on things before we do them, even before we say them, we will be much better off. But I’ve got that kind of ability to be able to look at a situation, kind of pause for a second and then perhaps at that point in time, suggest the next course of action. I’ve taken that kind of philosophy with me throughout my career, not only as a system analyst for the government, but later on my career transitioned to what’s weird, we collectively are doing today and that’s entrepreneurship because entrepreneurship to me is all about taking an idea, but then taking that idea further to be able to put everything around that as necessary to make a successful business.

What I’ve found over the last several years is that most entrepreneurs, in fact, almost all entrepreneurs, never have the whole package. Usually, it’s an engineer with a great idea, but they need somebody to help them in sales and marketing or they have great sales and marketing, but they have no idea about finance. So what we’ve tried to do over the last several years is to educate the community and bring people together to try to fill the gaps that are necessary to make these entrepreneurs very, very successful. So for the last, well since 1979, the only thing I’ve ever done is work on companies that are small companies that are entrepreneurs and I’ve made a great career out of that. The biggest success that I had, I think is worth mentioning here was in 1991, I joined a small company out of Pittsburgh. It was for university professors from Carnegie Mellon University who had a great idea.

My background was primarily in technology and mostly in the networking community. This was long before Ethernet and the Internet and so on. But what these guys had and what I see in entrepreneurs all the time today is a really great idea, but again, they were missing the sales and marketing piece, the finance piece, you know,  the “How do we reach out to customers,” “How do we communicate our message?” And these are the kinds of things that I think our entrepreneurs need from us and they make a very long story short. It’s the fact that we took a company that had nothing, we’ve got a little bit of money from the government and in the first year we did $100,000 in revenue, second year, $1 million in revenue by year nine, $800 million in revenue and built this company to the point where we sold it for four and a half billion dollars.

That’s a good exit. And these are the kinds of exits that I think that most entrepreneurs of course want. And that’s maybe an unusual situation, but from there I try to parlay that kind of strategy into the next several companies that I work with and worked for in order to have the same kind of exit. And I still think today here in West Virginia and in the Greater Appalachia area, we can create companies like that. It just takes guts. It takes hard work, right? It takes dedication, it takes building a team, it takes clear communication and a real strong mission to be successful. And if we continue to do things like that, I think we can create great companies here in this region. So that’s what I’m all about here today. I know maybe that was a long answer to your question, but I think that together, we can make this happen here in West Virginia and I’m definitely dedicated to doing that by merging together my experience and not only in public education, but in entrepreneurship and building early stage companies and also into having excellent exits so that people get a good return on their investment if they are able to invest in and work with these small companies and entrepreneurs.

Jeremy:

Well you said a lot of really powerful things in there and I’m going to try and pull a few of those out. One of which was this myth that I’m afraid that entrepreneurs think that they have to know and be all things within their entrepreneurial idea, their startup. You know, they may not naturally be a software developer, but they think they need to know all things about coding suddenly or they may be a great engineer, but then they go and try it and be the salesperson, the face of the organization because they think that’s part of the deal that they have to be all things. And so you talked about teamwork and the need to find out what pieces are missing from your team and then begin to assemble those human elements that can help fill in the blanks. And what we’re doing here in West Virginia and I think Greater Appalachia is it seems that we’re working towards forming teams on a couple of levels. One is people like you and I who are out trying to serve entrepreneurs are breaking the silos and getting our egos out of the way and saying, what do we need to do? Because nothing changes until something changes. Right? And so I’m very appreciative of people like you who are both willing and able to say, “Let’s go do this.” So, you know, thank you for that.

Mike:

Yeah, that’s very true. I mean, building the team is very, very difficult and you’re right; I’ve never seen an entrepreneur, even the smartest ones I’ve met, who had the whole package. So if you’re smart, what you do is you bring smarter people around you in order to be successful in whatever endeavor you’re doing in life. That’s been my strategy because I know I’m not the smartest guy in the room, but I’m smart enough to know that. So I think that’s really, really, really key. If you’re building an organization and me as an investor, that’s what I look for when I’m deciding to invest in a company. “Am I investing in the jockey here? Where am I investing on the horse?” And I’ve always had a strategy that says “I’m investing in the jockey. Is this a team builder? Is this somebody who has got listening skills? Are they coachable?” These are the kinds of attributes that you look for when you’re trying to create good companies in our region.

Jeremy:

I think knowing what it is that an investor is looking for is really crucial. And so you know, getting rid of this myth of the entrepreneur thinking they have to know everything. What would you say to the entrepreneur that says, “Well, I don’t want to appear weak or or stupid or like I don’t have plenty of talent by saying, ‘Hey, I don’t know how to do these things.’”

Mike:

I would say to anybody in any situation, number one, be yourself. Know what you know, know what you don’t know, and never be afraid to raise your hand and say, “I don’t know the answer to that.” Oftentimes I say to people that one of the first signs of maturity is to be able to raise your hand and say, “Excuse me, I don’t understand that.” How many times have you and I been in meetings where somebody will stand up there, that’s on the stage and talk about things and throw out acronyms and abbreviations and you sit there and you roll your eyes and say, “I have no idea what this person’s talking about.” My answer to that is if you’re mature, you raise your hand and say, “Wait a minute. You know that I don’t understand what you’re talking about. You know that you just used an abbreviation, an acronym or some term that we, the audience, don’t know. That’s disrespectful. Hit the pause button and explain what you mean.” So I would advise anybody, any entrepreneur or anybody in general, if you don’t understand something, raise your hand and say, “Please explain.” And that’s nothing wrong with that. That’s a sign of maturity and the sign that you’re trying to grow and to learn.

Jeremy:

That’s great advice. You know, so you talked about the need to build teams and the need to build great companies here in West Virginia and across Appalachia that can have these wonderful exits so that we can have that cycle of someone with an idea build a great company, experiences a fabulous exit, and then is able to go and do what you’ve been doing which is pour back into the communities. The need to have these great teams, what do you see, if any, of some of the barriers or obstacles that we have to overcome so that entrepreneurs can begin to build these great teams across Appalachia?

Mike:

Yeah, that’s a great question, Jeremy. There are a lot of things that are missing here. I mean, at the end of the day, funding has got to be an important thing. This is the only state area that I’ve lived in and worked in where you don’t really get a lot of support from the state itself. Our surrounding states pour millions and millions of dollars every day into helping entrepreneurs on the funding side. They also have a lot of programs. I’m keenly aware of the fact that we’re a small state and I tell everybody that all the time. Remember, there’s 1.8 million people in the whole state of West Virginia. Sometimes tongue in cheek, I’ll say there were more people who lived in my building in the Bronx than who live in West Virginia. So we don’t have the quantity, but let me make it absolutely clear to your audience.

We do have the quality of people. We really do, but they do need mentorship. They do need support from the state or from their local communities. At least the air cover, they say, “We’re going to support entrepreneurs, we’re going to support small businesses.” One of the biggest issues that we have here is a lot of people think that the way to be successful is to always shoot for the fences and hit that grand slam home run. Let me make this very clear to your audience and everybody listen to me. We are a community of singles and doubles. We do not have the opportunities necessarily to build the next, let’s say Fortune 500 companies. I wish we did, but our particular economy is based on small businesses and small businesses don’t necessarily have to be tech companies. Small businesses can be any kind of business in your community that’s necessary and our community has to rally around that and not always be afraid to be able to create something that’s new and innovative and it doesn’t necessarily have to be high tech. I think it’s highly unlikely we’re going to be able to create the next Facebook or the next Microsoft here in the next few years, but there are plenty of opportunities within our community to create great companies to help our community and those are the kinds of things that we’re focusing on. Let’s stop worrying about hitting the grand slam home run and try to get a ground rule double once in a while that’s going to help the economy. That’s what I think we need to be focusing on here in Greater Appalachia.

Jeremy:

I appreciate you bringing that up because that’s been sort of something stuck in my craw for a while is, you know, as I travel, there’s the constant banter about “We need to compete with Silicon Valley or be the next Silicon Valley. We need to have the next Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, whatever here.” And there’s been sort of a discounting of invalidating lifestyle businesses where someone starts a new mechanic shop and that employee is five people that puts food on the table and enriches the community in some fashion. So can you talk a little bit more about these lifestyle businesses or small businesses?

Mike:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that when I was on the school board several years ago that was a time where they created this whole concept of expanding career and technical education. And I’m a big advocate of that for our children because there are many great jobs that are out there. If we would train our kids on the jobs of the future and the jobs of the future aren’t necessarily these high tech jobs. Everybody talks about how there’s a great need for people to do welding and electrical work and plumbing work and HVAC work and all sorts of construction jobs that are not jobs for people who are uneducated. I mean, these jobs require education. They require understanding science and math and finance and all the things that are associated with that and we should be focusing on that. It is as much as anything else. There’s nothing really wrong with building\ good lifestyle businesses. If they grow and they become great companies, that’s terrific. But keeping that whole system moving within the community I think is very, very important and should be considered as something as demeaning as some sort of so-called blue collar job that’s not worthy of being funded and being supported in our community. That’s nonsense. It really is. We should be supporting more of that in our community because those are the kind of jobs that we do need and they’re high paying jobs and they’re not jobs that are demeaning in any way, shape, or form. I completely support that. That’s really, really important for us to continue to support those types of opportunities in our community.

Jeremy:

You know, I’ve seen it as I reflect back, I spent almost 20 years out of state in the Greater Charlotte area and moved back here to West Virginia in 2016, and since then, it’s given me an opportunity to really gain some perspective on things because with Charlotte, when I first moved there, there was still a lot of pasture land, believe it or not. Now it’s a concrete jungle and super tall buildings. And so there was this one sort of facade of what success really should look like if you’re not wearing a very nice suit and carrying a briefcase and you’re not really successful. However, as I’ve come back to West Virginia and gotten to become reacquainted with some of the people I grew up with, some of the most successful people that I know that I grew up with are blue collar people who make things; concrete businesses or multiple different businesses that they’ve grown or built or acquired that started with doing things with their hands.

Mike: 

And we should be supporting that. Back to the issue of what was said earlier about the state in investing in our people. Well, the answer to that is, if they don’t, we can’t just say, “Well, the role arises, now what are we going to do?” And just, you know, fold up a tent and go home. Which is why I, myself and a number of the folks that I work with are really encouraging the business community to take a more active role here. I would strongly recommend that more and more local businesses get out in their community, go out and talk to the kids in their high schools and the middle schools all the time and be poster children. I mean that is a nice way to show that people in West Virginia can be successful.

We’ve got thousands and thousands of successful business people in this region. It’s our entire region. So short of doing nothing, my philosophy is when you don’t know what to do, do something. And there’s something that I’ve tried to preach for many, many uses for the business community or business leaders to get out in our communities, get out in our schools and show people that they can be successful and just lead the way. That way, by example, we have tons and tons of people out there who can do that. I wish we can get them better organized to go in and do it if you can’t always rely on the government to save your businesses. You’ve got to do that as an entrepreneur. That’s one of the differentiations of being a good entrepreneur, is being able to figure that out and be successful on your own without the help of a crutch from the federal government or the state.

We’ve got to push that and that’s an important message. There are people like myself who’ve created angel networks, investment entities like angel funds and now a venture capital fund like Mountain State Capital are here to help people. And we have a few state entities that are out there, that people would seek them out. And one of the things that good entrepreneurs always do is find the people that can help them. I mean, if you’re going to be an entrepreneur, you just can’t sit back and wait for people to come to you to help you. You’ve got to go out and seek them out and get them to get you over the next particular hump in order to be successful.

Jeremy:

That’s good advice as well. And you know, the need to not just wait for someone to come to you. What I also heard you say in there, which is something that I’ve been very passionate about as well here in West Virginia. I think too often we’re our own worst critics, our own biggest enemies because we buy in and craft and perpetuate this narrative that we aren’t enough. You know, we operate from this deficit mindset that we have. We don’t have what we need here. We need someone to come from up on high and come and rescue us. And yet, you’ve seen it. I’ve seen it. We have great people who have great ideas and fabulous businesses and business ideas and we have lots of resources. What’s still missing? And so as you consider this question, the term entrepreneurial ecosystem, it’s a buzz, right? You know, we hear it all the time. Could you take a minute and talk about what that means, what entrepreneurial ecosystem means to you and what perhaps you’ve seen elsewhere that we could perhaps take and apply here in West Virginia that would be helpful.

Mike:

Yeah, I mean the first thing they’ll look at here and what they’re doing there, which was a complete shock to me when I got here is the overall overarching culture that you just mentioned. That implies that we’re not good enough here in this particular region. What nonsense. I mean that’s completely nonsense and so we’ve got to overcome that because I meet with a lot of young people and and a lot of children over the years here in West Virginia and they have a bit of a defeatist attitude and they got to get over that because I think that they have the capability to do anything they want to do if they put their mind to it. But in terms of an ecosystem is something that does require not only funding, the money is the easiest part of creating a company. It’s the ability to really articulate what that company is all about, what that idea is all about to show the differentiation between what you’ve decided to do, what you created is different than what anybody else does. And that’s very difficult. When we meet the new, and I meet with a lot of entrepreneurs, they think they’re the first person to ever think of this particular idea. And I usually point out to them, let me tell you right now, there are 10 people in Silicon Valley, Boston, Washington, New York, and elsewhere who’ve thought about the same idea. What’s so special about it? Where’s your differentiation? Where is your intellectual property? Why should I bet on you compared to somebody else? And that’s a very, very difficult thing to do. There’s always the idea of, “Well, I can build a better mousetrap.” Well, there’s plenty of mouse traps out there. What are you creating that’s going to change the world? What are you doing that’s so significantly different? And what I tell most people at this particular stage, you need to do your homework.

There’s no shortcuts to be a great entrepreneur. You got to do your homework. One of the things that I always recommend to every entrepreneur in building their own ecosystem is to make sure they get some mentors. Get people who are not going to just patronize you, to give you that tough love when you need it, smack you around, tell you that your idea is really crazy and stupid, and make you prove that what you’re trying to do is something different and differentiable and has value that an investor is going to want to come along and say, “I want to party with you. I want to give you my money because I know you’re going to return this with vigor and create a great company.” The whole idea of investing is a head at a venture capital guy explained to me in the simplest terms, he said, “The whole idea of making an investment is, that the investor gives you a small bit of money and expects a lot of money back.”

And so at the end of the day, that’s what a lot of entrepreneurs need to understand. Yes, I want to create a great company, a great product, a great solution, but for investors, it’s what is the return on investment and why or why should I put my money on you versus somebody else. So, building that ecosystem is not only about the idea, it’s about building the team, it’s about building mentorship and having a very clear vision as to where this thing is going to go and how your investors are going to get a return on their investment.

Jeremy:

Mentorship is super important; to partner with someone who maybe has gone before you and who you can emulate and bounce questions off of and get some tough love. Where can folks find good mentors?

Mike:

They’re out there. I think one of the qualities of a good entrepreneur is that they’re able to find those people and they’re everywhere. And they’re everywhere in West Virginia and throughout Greater Appalachia if you go seek them out. From your parents, to your teachers, to some community leaders. I’ve found a lot of entrepreneurs will just go knock on doors or hear somebody speaking and just call them up. And part of being a good entrepreneur is to be able to have the kind of guts to be able to pick up the phone and call somebody. And don’t be afraid to get a door slam in your face. Don’t be afraid or ashamed to get somebody hanging up on you. I mean, obviously we all get telemarketers calling us all the time. I understand that. But I think the most important four letter word for most entrepreneurs is help. And I’ve very rarely run into people, when you use the word, “I need your help.” Who is going to say, “No, I’m not going to help you.” And I think that’s it. That’s a particular trait of the people here in Greater Appalachia is that it’s the only place I’ve ever lived where people genuinely want to help you. Well, you grow up in a big city like New York, New York, for example, where I grew up I would doubt very seriously if I walked down the street and saw somebody and say, “I need your help on something.” So on something, they would probably just either step right over me and say, “Get the hell out of the way, buddy, and I don’t have time for you.”

You don’t find that in Greater Appalachia. You find people who genuinely will help you if you ask the right questions. If you’re appropriate in your way you’re dealing with them and you have a particular mission and your passion comes through the other. That’s a trait that I look for in entrepreneurs. Do they really care? Are they passionate about what they’re doing? Are they people who genuinely want to be successful? For lots of reasons besides making money and a lot of it may be, “I just need to take care of my family,” or “I think this is a great idea.” But to have that passion and have that come through from an entrepreneur I think is extremely important.

Jeremy:

No doubt. You know, I can’t imagine wanting to invest in someone who it seems like maybe they’re asleep at the wheel. There’s just really no energy coming from them. They can be brilliant, but there’s really nothing emotional coming from the new emotional attachment to what they’re doing.

Mike:

Yeah. And most entrepreneurs, and I do that sometimes when I’m lecturing to entrepreneurs, I try to find out what they are like as people. Are they all in? I will oftentimes kind of in a joking way, ask them like in the middle of the presentation I’ll say, “Well, that’s really great. Tell me about your family.” And they’ll talk about that. And then I might ask a silly question like, “Well, what did you have for dinner last night? And if they know the answer to that, I usually say that’s not a good sign. Because they shouldn’t be thinking about what they’re eating. They should be thinking about whatever this entrepreneur deal is all about. And then if you really want to get silly, I’ll say, “Please quickly name your children.” Now if they have to pause for a minute, that’s a positive thing because maybe they’re thinking about the business and said, “I’m trying to be a little silly here, but the whole point of that is that if you’re going to be a good entrepreneur and if you’re going to create a business, you really have to be all in. That means you’re going to be sleep deprived. That means you’re going to give up other things in your life.” But that particular passion and that particular focus is really a critical trait of anybody who’s going to be a good entrepreneur or for that matter, be successful in any business. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t balance your life with your family and other things that are important to you. We all need to do that, but to create a business and to be an entrepreneur does take a very, very different kind of a person, someone who is absolutely focused on what that mission is and will take no for an answer. So we’ll continually focus on, try to get answers and surround themselves with people who can help them be successful. But that’s what I think is really critical to be a good, successful entrepreneur in our community.


Jeremy:

How does failure fit in? You know, failure is a topic that I can recall growing up hearing, you know, failure is not an option when it all costs, you create these really ridiculous zero sum games where I only win if you lose. And we’ve created a culture where people are afraid to fail. Can you speak to failure for a minute for entrepreneurial success?

Mike:

Yeah. I talk about this all the time when I lecture to entrepreneurs. I say, “I hope you fail,” and they look at me crazy. Especially for the first time. Entrepreneur, go fail, go make, go make mistakes. That’s okay. That’s growth. Failure to me equals growth. It means education and learning. Do not ever be afraid to fail. I mean it, usually the story I tell is and I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I look at WD-40; you know why it’s called WD 40? Because they messed up the first 39 times, so now it’s a successful product. I hope that’s true. You probably could look that up in Wikipedia. But that’s not a bad thing to quote. Fail. Failure is a learning experience. It’s not a scarlet letter in any way, shape, or form. And people should not be afraid to fail and to make mistakes into use. The buzzword of the day is to pivot.

Okay, it didn’t work. So I’m going to change, I’m going to pivot, I’m going to go a different direction. I’m not going to give up. I have no problems with people who say, “Hey listen, this is my 10th company. I failed the first nine times, but this one’s going to be successful.” I look at that and say, “I think the odds are much better in your favor because you now know what not to do as well as what to do.” That’s my feeling about failure. That’s growth. Not something that’s negative in any way, shape, or form.

Jeremy:

Love it. Yeah. Again, I grew up in this Appalachian culture where we had that beaten into us of “don’t fail.” You know, as an athlete, as a scholar, as a citizen, don’t fail because it’s embarrassing and it’s going to make you look bad and it’s going to reflect so poorly on you that it will be very much like that scarlet letter. So glad to hear that. You know, investors such as yourself and people outside of our culture have known for some time that that’s not really, that’s not real. It’s not a real expectation to have not failed.

Mike:

That’s absolutely true. And it is a trick, too, Jeremy that I look for in entrepreneurs. So tell me about, not telling me about your successes. Okay. Everybody wants to talk about them. Where have you made mistakes and what have you learned from them? It’s probably much more valuable. And that’s what I want. That’s what I listen for when I talk to young entrepreneurs or anybody creating a business. I think that’s very, very important.

Jeremy:

Well, I hope that listeners and then when your video comes out we’ll key into that and get off this “I can’t fail” nonsense. That, I think, is crippling, paralyzing entrepreneurs out there who may have an idea to go do something and yet they say, “Well, I’ve got to get everything right before I start.” I heard an analogy once that waiting for all the conditions to be perfect is very much like waiting if you’re going to drive from the east coast to Seattle, waiting for all the lights, the traffic lights to be green before you leave your driveway and it’s not a real expectation.

Mike:

That’s not realistic.

Jeremy:

Mike:

And learn from your experiences and you’ll be a much better, successful business person, no matter what business it is, no matter what you do in life. I’ve never been afraid to try things and fail. I think that it’s one of the traits you look for is whether that individual has confidence in himself or herself, that matter, and that comes through when you’re interviewing entrepreneurs and they have the only answers to everything, that’s probably not a good bet because that means that person’s probably not coachable, probably not going to be able to change when things go badly. Not going to be able to deal with the trials and tribulations of building a company because they’re going to be bumps in the road and those are the kinds of traits that we look for when we’re trying to win, to decide whether to invest in a company. Can they ride out the storm when things go bad and are they going to get too high when things go good because that’s not necessarily. Another great thing to do is that you’ve got to be more or less even-tempered along the way here. You’re going to have bumps in the road, you’re going to have huge successes. Don’t rally around these great successes and think you’ve got the world by the tail. Be humble. I understand that being a good business person, be a good entrepreneur. It takes humility just to be able to be confident, but at the same time, be within yourself and not think that you know it all, that you have the ability to be able to create great things, but also be humble enough to know, “Hey, wait a minute. I’m not perfect because nobody is.” Most entrepreneurs understand that; most of the good ones do. I’ve had the opportunity to meet with a lot of great successful entrepreneurs and great business people in my career and they all had that kind of same kind of quality. The good ones really understand that “I’m not perfect. I’m going to make mistakes.” And they deal with it and you move on instead of feeling sorry for yourself, which is a very bad trait. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and go out there and try again. That’s a much better philosophy and don’t get too excited when things are going that great because there’s always a roller coaster in this world and what goes up, comes down. But most of the time, if you’re a successful person, what goes down will come back up. They’ve got to believe in that, Jeremy. And that’s an important trait that we look for when we’re investing in companies and people.

Jeremy:

That’s good. You know, the emotional, even-keel to recognize that there are peaks and valleys in this journey, in that wherever you happen to be at the moment is not necessarily your final destination if you believe it’s not your final destination.

Mike:

Absolutely. I agree.

Jeremy:

So, you know, I’d like to switch gears just a little bit and dig into you for a moment. Talk about if you would, where you grew up and how that shaped you and maybe some of your learnings along your journey to get to where you are now.

Mike:

Yeah, I mean, I’m proud of where I came from. Like I said, we weren’t rich by any way, shape, or form, but from the time I was eight years old, I was always working. Well growing up in the inner city in New York, you gain a lot of street smarts, I think. And I think that’s served me well. But I’ve always had a work ethic. My parents were very strong in my life. I was very fortunate to have great parents; didn’t give me a lot financially, but gave me a great home life and a lot of love. And that helped me. But I’ve always been somebody who was anxious to learn to solve problems and I’ve taken that kind of philosophy with me everywhere I’ve gone. From the time I was eight years old, I’ve tried to emulate that in everything I’ve done. I’ve tried to encourage my kids and the people at work with me to do the same thing. I don’t think there’s any substitute for hard work. I really don’t. There’s a lot of people out there that are very, very smart and have very, very high, good IQs and are brilliant people. But I still think the world is being run by the folks that are the B+ people and not necessarily the A+ people that really run the world because I think for that matter they’re perhaps more pragmatic. I have been able to deal with the trials and tribulations of life and have been able to work through that. I know I’ve worked hard and been more than anything else, very, very fortunate. I’ve been encouraging people from what I’m speaking today, I’ve been lucky to have good mentors along the way because I sought them out. Everybody has that proverbial great teacher that helped them get to where they are today. I had one when I was in ninth grade. It was, I’ll never forget, Mr. Flannery. Mr. Flannery saw in me something that I did not see in me because even though I was kind of a smart kid, I was kind of lazy. 

One day, he took me by the collar that you couldn’t do today and grabbed me by the shirt collar and looked right in the eyes and said, “Wise up, Green. Wise up.” And the anecdote of that was that when I got to high school, I was very surprised because when I got there and I went to an all-boys high school with 6,000 boys. And when I got there, to the high school on the first day, I get my card with all my classes on it and on the classes it said, “English SC, Mathematics SC,” and I’m thinking, “SC, that can’t be stupid kid? What is this?” And it turned out that Mr. Flannery, who grabbed me by the shirt collar, had made a call into the school and recommended me for this thing. They called the scholarship class, which was only 30 kids out of the 6,000 and the kids that were part of this class and it was a wake up call for me because all I wanted to do at that particular time was play sports or play music. And I didn’t realize that there was much more potential out there because in both cases, both of my music career and my sports career, I was going nowhere. Okay. I was a pretty good baseball player, except for the fact I couldn’t hit and couldn’t throw. Other than that, I was a really good ball player. I was a pretty good piano player and I played the trumpet, but it was not good enough to be in a rock band. So, I had to hide to grow from that. And the growth experience from that was working harder, working smarter, staying focused. And then I was fortunate enough to go to college, get a degree. And then my experience, you mentioned earlier at the National Security Agency was a great experience because it got me out of my initial element to go someplace where I was really critically important, too.

An important mission. That may sound like brainwashing and it really kind of is. But the point is, when you wake up in the morning, you realize that what you’re doing for a living has a lot to do with people’s lives. You take that very seriously. If you translate it to the business world, and I kind of say that somewhat tongue in cheek, when you’re dealing with a job that requires you to do your job appropriately, the people save lives. That’s very, very important. Then you get into the business world where making money, and especially if you worked for a public company where there’s pressures on you to make your numbers every quarter, that’s pressure, too in a different kind of way because the last thing you want to in a public company or any kind of company is to lose money and your investors get sour on you.

So I think that learning the lessons that I think I’ve learned over the years that having internal pressures is a good thing. Having yourself focusing on a mission is a good thing. You shouldn’t be complacent, and I’ve always found a way to try to encourage people to push themselves. As a manager, I always would look at my employees and say, “You’re doing a really good job. Have you thought about this?” Not telling him what to do, but encouraging to go forward, to push themselves a little bit further and years later, I would get people to come back to me. “I’m glad you told me to do that because I became more successful in doing so.” I think that’s an important trait of who we are is to never be complacent in what we’ve done and what we’ve accomplished in the past. Go forward to try to do more. And that’s what we were trying to do here in our region here. I said earlier in the podcast that I’ve been very, very fortunate, very, very fortunate in my life and a lot of luck was involved in that as well. But working in education and I still continue to work on the West Virginia Public Education Collaborative, which is a number of us from the private and public sector and university sector to work together every day to try to come up with better education policies for our children and making sure our legislature understands, that our law makers understand that it’s important for us to have good education policies to work with them, to work with our communities on entrepreneur programs that get key people to understand the pragmatic things associated with being in business.

Okay. It’s not that easy, but unless you put the people together in an organization where they’re able to learn from others to share their experiences, we’re never going to get there. If you look at what’s going on in Appalachia, I say this all the time, there’s a new invention called the Internet. Many people have heard about this, which basically normalizes the entire world. You can be anywhere and be successful. Now we do have challenges which we continue to work on in terms of things like Broadband in our Appalachia area. And we will continue to push that. We have challenges in terms of the curricular that exists in our school system today that I’m intimately involved in. We’re working very hard on trying to increase the opportunities for STEM or STEM programs in our schools because these are the jobs of the future.

The one thing we do know is that the jobs of today are not going to be here 10 years from now. There is such an evolution and revolution in the development of technology and what the needs of the future are going to be that I don’t think any of us can predict what the world is going to be like in 10 years from now, from a technological perspective, what the jobs of the future are going to be like. So, we’ve got to prepare our kids for that. And there’s one mission that I want to make sure everybody understands. That’s what our focus needs to be on today is making sure that our kids, the next generation, are prepared for what’s going to happen in 10 years. Because it’s my strong opinion that a lot of the curriculum exists in our school system today and a lot of the things that we’re teaching our kids today are not going to be the foundation for what’s going to be needed in 10 years from now; five years from now. With the development of technology and the way things have changed and the trajectory has changed so significantly in my lifetime where things just take a month or two months to happen now happen in milliseconds. So, I know that’s a long answer to my philosophy, but I think that our entire community has to be focused on our young people and focusing on them, on curriculum that matters.

I think we should be teaching things like life one-on-one skills. We should be teaching in our school system things like financial literacy. A lot of our children today wouldn’t know how to write a check, wouldn’t even be able to write their name. Okay. Because they’re so used to doing everything with their fingertips and their thumbs. But understanding basic things like that is part of curriculum that I think should be taught in our schools. And I think we, as investors, look for people who are well-rounded and understand that. And if there’s one other takeaway from that is to be able to communicate, be able to collaborate, and be able to work together in teams. These are the kinds of things that I think are extremely important for our young people and for our society here, especially here in Greater Appalachia, to thrive and to be successful in the future.

Jeremy:

And again, this reactivity that we’ve developed here across Appalachia, just sort of wait and see rather than being proactive, it has become such a hindrance to us. You know, hockey is great. Wayne Gretzky talked about the need to skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it is now. And you know, we’ve got great biblical wisdom from Proverbs 22:6 that talks about “Train up a child and the way it should go and when he’s old and not apart from it.” So you know, preparing them for what lies ahead rather than being stagnant and just staying status quo and keeping things as they are and sort of this protectionist environment.

Mike:

Yeah, we’re nowhere unless our next generation really has the tools to be successful. My age, my parents, were indeed the greatest generation. My generation came along and I think kind of messed things up quite a bit to be honest with you. We maybe gave our kids too much, but life is cyclical. It’s coming around again and I think it’s really, really important for us today to make sure that our kids are more grounded. We’ve got many more problems to deal with today in today’s society than we had when I was growing up in the 50s and 60s, okay. The world has changed so much. We have so many bigger challenges, whether it’s the opioid problem or it’s homelessness, and that’s a part of society that we’ve got to help as well. So there are many of the things that we’re doing and as entrepreneurs and as business people, I think we have a responsibility to find solutions to these big problems.

And many of us are working on those types of things. If we have an opioid crisis, we can just put our head in the sand or any kind of drug problem and say, “Okay, there’s nothing we can do about that.” And many people, including myself sometimes just just roll our eyes and say, “I really don’t know how to solve that particular problem.” But that’s the way I feel for about 10 milliseconds. And the next thing I say is, “How are we going to fix this problem?” Because it’s critical that we do and the homelessness problem and all the other additional pressures that are on our children today is something that we, our kids, try to find solutions for. And I just hope to God and I pray that we can rally around together as a community to solve these types of problems and not just focus on what’s very specific and important to us.

You know, deep down inside maybe we’re all kind of narcissistic in many ways. “It’s all about me.” But I try to surround myself with people who don’t think that way, that they think more globally than this is about our community. This is about improving the lives of the people here in this region. And that’s my passion. Okay. When I got here, I said, “These are great people. I love it here in Appalachia.” Okay, we’ve got to overcome the concept that we’re not good enough. Okay? We’ve got to keep our kids here. And I frequently will lecture at the universities and I’ll ask how many of you young people are going to stay here in Appalachia or after you get your degree? And it breaks my heart when I see the hands go up and say 95% of them are going to leave. Why?

Because no opportunities, no jobs. We’ve got to fix that problem here. There is no better place to live in my opinion, because I live here. Then in this region, we’ve got it all. I look outside my window right now. It’s a beautiful day here. I was talking to a friend of mine who was in the Carolinas, “It’s cold and yucky here today.” Friend of mine in Florida, “Yeah, it’s raining.” We’re so immune to it. Terrible. You know, weather conditions here, we’re close to big cities, right? We have all the culture that we would need. We have great people, we have great weather. What’s not to love about the outdoors here in our area. It’s a great place to live and there’s no reason in the world we couldn’t thrive here in this region. We don’t have to be on the coast. You don’t have to be in Silicon Valley to be a great entrepreneur. You don’t have to be in Boston or New York or Washington, DC. You can be right here in Greater Appalachia and have a very successful life, have a great lifestyle, and great opportunities. But we’ve got to create companies. We’ve got to make sure that we do everything you possibly can to keep our kids here and have them thrive here and bring people home. That’s what we’ve been trying to do. 

Jeremy:

I describe myself as one of the boomerang kids. You know, I threw myself down in the Carolinas, but I was able to find my way back. And you know, there are others who grew up here and are finding the way back in different chapters of their lives. So, for anyone listening, if you’ve been thinking about coming back, get on board. When I was in the Carolinas and said that I was coming home, moving back to West Virginia, they said, “You’re going to be out of  work. You’re going to have to go get a job. You’re going to have to shut your company down. There’s no opportunity there.” I said, “Great. Watch me.”

Mike:

Well, you’re a great example of somebody who came home and are making a big impression on what’s happening in our community and I’m grateful to you for that. And our community should be grateful to you, Jeremy; you’re doing a great job getting the message out. But this is a great place to live, to raise your family, and have a great life. I wish people would come home, too to our area.

Jeremy:

Well, we’re going to keep pushing it until they do because you and I share the trade of we don’t give up so easily, so.

Mike:

It’s not in my DNA. Never will be. We’re going to have to carry me out of here and I’m going to do everything I possibly can to try to create companies and create wealth and we’re going to have those successes and people are going to say, “Gee, that was a great idea. I’m glad I thought of it.” Now, it doesn’t matter. None of us who do what we do are looking for any kind of personal gratification. I think that the people that I’ve surrounded myself with are people who really want this community to thrive because we have all the raw ingredients to do that. We just have to have a couple of good dominoes to fall. And I think from there on end people are going to realize, “Wow, what is it? This is a great place to live, great place to raise your family and I can be successful in many, many ways here.

Jeremy:

I agree with you 100%. I can keep you here all day and I always enjoy our conversations. They’re valuable to me. I’m very thankful and appreciative of you taking the time, but I want to move towards wrapping up. So a couple more questions as we move towards that direction. The name of this podcast is the Heroes of Change podcast. The tagline for my company is Guiding the Heroes of Change. And you’ve likely heard me use that phrasing more than once. So if you would take a minute and talk about when you hear that phrase, “Heroes of Change,” what does that mean to you and why is it so important for everyday people like you and I to get up and go do the things that need to be done?

Mike:

A great phrase. It’s hard to put into words exactly the way I feel about this, but I think that just by definition, the world is always changing and you have to be flexible and you have to be someone who looks at the world through not only the glass being half full, I think it’s three quarters full and able to look at that and say, “Okay, yeah, well we got to make full.” And in order to do that, I think you’ve got to have a much better attitude about what you do every single day. And I think we just have to look to make sure that we create better leaders. And one of the things that concerns me about what we’re doing in our community is that we’re not growing great leaders from  inside our communities.

And I think that’s one of the reasons that we haven’t been as successful as we could have been. We’re always looking to the outside for people to come in and do things for us. So, I think a program that we need to create here in our community is to create those next level of leaders. The next, we call C-level, CFO, CEO, COO leaders in our community. But in order to do that, the business community has to rally around that and basically take a lot of these people, young people in as interns, great programs so they can actually see how things are done. We have so many kids in our community who are looking for that hero and they don’t realize they’re right in their own hometown. But I think part of that means that the business leaders need to not just sitting back waiting for that to happen, to proactively go out to the community and show these young people that this is the way you are successful.

So the heroes are here and the heroes are definitely people that are your next door neighbors and everywhere I go, I try to talk to business leaders to say, “Take an hour a month and go to a high school and walk in there and talk to the principal and let a kid meet you.” We have so many young people in our community who are looking for those heroes in there right around us. But I think the heroes need to go out and seek them as much as the young people need to go out and seek the heroes. How hard would it be for a successful business person to take an hour a month and just show up at a school? We have so many kids who have no idea what a university looks like, what a college looks like, what a CEO is and what he does.

Well, what this young woman who created a company in some small town in West Virginia, how hard she worked to create that. That person is a hero and they’re right here. So let’s get them more organized and be able to proactively go out and educate and show people by showing them, not talking about it, but actually showing them YouTube can be successful, just like me, and I come from the same community that you do. And there’s many people around who are trying to do that, but it needs to be much more organized and we need to be much more aggressive in trying to get our young people to know that they’re out there if they would seek it. So that’s what I think the heroes are in. And I absolutely believe that they’re right here next

door. We just got to get more people involved and engaged in our communities. 

Jeremy:

Love it. And with the media and such, I think we’ve got sometimes a distorted vision of what success has to be. You know, you experienced this major actually now a couple of major exits where we’re talking billions of dollars and not that there’s anything wrong with that and not that we can’t have that here within Appalachia. I think the understanding that success doesn’t have to be that success can be running a small business that employees, a handful of people, a success can be you know, serving on a school board and loving your neighbor and doing great things within your small community. Doesn’t have to be appearing on the front page of major publications or on major networks, day in and day out. 

Mike:

Yeah.The people that I really love and respect at the table who are under the radar don’t look to be the ones that are on the front page of any paper or getting a lot of notes, positive notoriety. That to me is not a successful person. I mean, yeah, we need some of that out there, but the successful ones are the ones who are working day to day, raising their family and running good companies and giving back to the community. And maybe, I don’t mean to sound cheesy or anything like that, but the people that I like to certainly personally associate with and try to show as a leader and a role model, are the people who do pay it forward and give back to the community and don’t look for anything in return because that’s obvious. I think it comes through very clearly to some of the people that I know, okay. If it’s what’s in it for me. So I don’t think that way and I try to associate myself with people and think the same way. It’s not about me, it’s about us. And I think once you have that kind of philosophy, I think you’ll sleep better at night. So it’ll be a place to go when you’re all done. That’s probably positive. And I think that’s important for everybody to really understand. That it’s for the greater good of the community and great community here in Appalachia. And I’m just thrilled to be here and be a small part of it. We’ll continue to do everything I possibly can to improve the lives of the people here in our greatt community. 

Jeremy:

That’s as much appreciated with those who are giving things and expecting something in return. That’s not a gift. It’s a transaction. I think it was Einstein that said something to the effect of don’t seek to be a person of importance. Seek to be a person of value. And you know, that’s what we need more of, is getting away from the ego piece. “Look at me. I’m so great.” If you’re a person of value, others will notice. And in the end, it doesn’t really matter anyway. If others notice, just go do what you know is right and make an impact. Being the change is about it’s an act. It’s an action that you take. It’s not something you consider or wonder about or dream of. You get up and go, do you default to action? As you were talking earlier, you go do something, whatever.

Mike:

I love your philosophy, Jeremy. I mean, it’s so refreshing. I mean, I feel so fortunate to know you and so I’m excited about this particular mission you’re on right now because it’s critically important to our community. So I want to, before I forget, thank you again for this opportunity to speak to you and to your audience, but thank you and bless you for what you’re doing every single day. It’s really meaningful and important to our community.

Jeremy:

It’s a humbling experience to take on something like this and yeah, just my hope is just to share these words of encouragement and stories of others that might inspire someone else. So, final question for you is how, if people want to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing at Mountain State Capital and elsewhere, how might they learn more about you?


Mike:

Yeah, I probably make it a very, very important mission of myself to be responsive to anybody who contacts me no matter, what it is. You certainly can reach me by email. It’s Mountain State Capital, it’s one word. So you can go mike@mountainstatecapital.com, which we there, we have a website, mountainstatecapital.com. All one word. And I will do my very, very best. We’ll be responsive to any of your listeners or people watching this podcast to be responsive as best I possibly can. And if there’s a response, that’s important. And if I don’t have the answer, I’ll try to direct that person to whoever can answer the question. We view ourselves oftentimes what we do is triage agents for the community. We get a lot of calls from people who are looking for help or looking for money or looking for advice and for guidance. And we don’t have all the answers, nor do we have all the money. I wish we did. If we did, we would certainly invest in more companies. We have to be very selective. Entrepreneurs need to understand that, too. When they’re looking for money, a venture capital fund like ours, we will look at 200 companies and invest in one. So, you’ve got to be very special out there. You’ve got to be very creative. You’ve got to be very clear in your communication. You’ve got to be inventive. You’ve got to have intellectual property. You have to have differentiation. If you’re looking for help I’m happy to be a person who can help you. Challenge me. See if I’m telling you the truth, I’m trying to be as responsive as I can, but be prepared for the fact that I might tell you, “Hey, wait a minute. I think you’re barking up the wrong tree or you’re going in the wrong direction.” You don’t need, “yes people.” You need people who give you encouragement, but not give you encouragement for something that we strongly believe is not going to be successful for you. That’s okay. Like I said earlier, we talked about earlier – failure is ok. Making mistakes is fine. God knows I make them all the time.

But when you bounce back from that, I think you can be much more successful. So any of your listeners out there, mike@mountainstatecapital.com. Reach out to me anytime you would like and I’d be delighted to be able to help in any way I can. 

Jeremy:

And I know that to be true. I know I’ve reached out to you a number of times and you’ve always been terribly responsive and I appreciate that. So again, appreciate you taking the time to be on today and sharing some I think really sage advice and some words of encouragement for especially for people here within Appalachia. But your messages translate no matter where our listeners may be. So again, much appreciated. 

Mike:

Thank you, Jeremy, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks so much for the opportunity. 

Jeremy:

So that’s all for this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. We hope that you’ve been inspired by something you heard today because together, we are the change. Tune in next time as we dig into the story of another hero and learn what they do, how they do it, and more importantly, why they do what they do. Take care, stay encouraged, and we’ll look forward to seeing you next time on the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. Take care.

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Heroes of Change: with Carl Lee of Legends Building Legends

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A Sit-Down with Carl Lee of Legends Building Legends

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As Part of the Heroes of Change Podcast

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Jeremy Turner, Founder and Managing Director of EPIC Mission:

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. This is Jeremy Turner, founder and managing director of EPIC Mission, and I’ll be your host.

Here on the podcast, we are highlighting the trials, victories, and applied wisdom of our community change agents, unsung heroes, and those who empower them to #BeTheChange across Appalachia and beyond. We seek to inspire and equip everyday heroes, just like you, to take on our greatest challenges because together, we are the change. 

For today, I’m really happy, thrilled, and ecstatic to welcome my friend, Carl Lee, to the show. Before we get to him, I want to read just a little snippet about Carl. Carl is a West Virginia native and resident, former South Charleston High School football star, Marshall University stand-out, and Minnesota Vikings top 50 player.

With 12 years playing in the NFL and 10 years as a head football coach, Carl has a strong desire to assist in guiding our West Virginia youth down the proper path to success through his new organization, Legends Building Legends (LBL). LBL is a collaborative effort between Carl and NFL hall of famer, Marshall football great and fellow West Virginian, Randy Moss.

As a community-based initiative led by those who have already overcome the challenges along the journeys to success, leveraging the power of sports to connect people and train up the next generation of community legends. Awesome stuff. Thankfully, I’m a little familiar with what’s going on there, but Carl, everybody has got a bio, so take a minute and tell us a little bit more about what you would like us to know about you and the work that you’re doing that goes beyond what I just read there.

Carl Lee, Co-founder of Legends Building Legends

Let me start by … Kind of as you talked about, “Everybody has a story behind the bio,” when people look at 12 years, 50 greatest, Pro Bowls, and all those kinds of things, what they really don’t know is I was the guy that everybody said wouldn’t get there, more or less even have a chance to make it and/or play. I was almost cut in my rookie season because a young man by the name of Melvin Brown hurt his knee and that was the only reason that I actually made the initial roster for the Vikings. Then after that, what they used to call “move week,” was when guys come off Injured Reserve, they have to make room on the roster. 

It’s Friday practice, the third game going into the fourth game of the season, and my defensive back coach walks by me and says, “Hey. We’re probably going to cut you on Monday if you don’t play well in the game.”

Obviously, the first question is, “Am I going to play?” At that point, I had not even been on the field.

He said, “I don’t control that,” so my fate was kind of sealed at that point.

The very first kick off of the game by the guy I backed up on special teams, kick cover and front cover, tore his achilles fronbone. I ended playing the rest of the day and had four or five solo tackles. Bud Grant was a big guy on special teams, so I ended up making it. Along with that, my third season, I actually got cut for four days. I was on my way to Pittsburgh when the cornerback, who they kept for me instead of me, had a really bad play on the screen. He just kind of ducked out of it. At that point, Pete Carroll is now the defensive back coach. Pete just simply asked him why he turned down the play. He said, “It’’s pre-season. I didn’t want to get hurt.”

That probably wasn’t the best answer, and they ended up cutting him. They contacted me on Sunday. I signed on Monday, and I started on that following Sunday. Then, that’s where my career goes. That bio … If someone thinks it’s impressive or it’s pretty good, the truth behind that is it took a lot of different things. What I say to people about that when I tell that story is, “Are you ready? Are you ready when the opportunity comes?,” because a lot of times you give up and you think that you’re not going to make it. You don’t have the confidence to stay prepared. If I wasn’t ready each opportunity to get in to play, I’m not going to make it. My bio does not read like that. That’s the story behind the bio for me.

Jeremy Turner:

How much of success do you think is mental and how much is physical, whether it’s NFL or something else?

Carl Lee:

I think it’s mental. I’d say there’s a ton of mental sides of it that you have to believe. I use arrogance not as a negative word, but there’s a certain amount of arrogance. I’ve got to be able to look at you, assess you, and try to figure out whether or not I’m as good as you. How do I need to outwork you? I’ve got to be able to believe in my head that I can do that, so whatever your work ethic is, I’ve got to top that. To me, that’s the mindset. That mindset, the mental piece, pulls in the physical piece. You’ve got to put in the work. When you start talking about being the best person at a high school, there’s a billion high schools across the country. Being the best high school athlete at your school, in the county, or in the state, that’s not big enough. You haven’t accomplished anything, yet. Sometimes, we use a negative side of arrogance and think, “Oh, because I’m the best kid in the school, that means something.” I wasn’t the best player on any of my youth football teams. I was not the best player in middle school or junior high back in the day. I wasn’t the best player in high school, and I wasn’t the best player in college. By the time I was out of all of those and by the time it was time to leave and go to the next step, I was prepared to make that next jump.

Jeremy Turner:

You and I have had a lot of opportunities to talk about things and people in your life. Sonny Randle is a name that some people listening to this may know. Do you want to talk about Sonny and the role that he played in your development?

Carl Lee:

Yeah. I’ll give a little bit of background on Sonny Randle, and I’ll go into the impact that he had on me. Sonny Randle was an NFL player, wide receiver, who played for the St. Louis Cardinals, which tells you how far back that goes. He played in the 60s, and it took Jerry Rice to break his receiving records. I’m sure a lot of people will know that name, so that’s how impressive his stats were. He was also the coach for Eastern Carolina, the team that Marshall played prior to the plane crash. He was on the opposing sideline the night of the plane crash at Marshall. When he came to Marshall, he was my second visit to Marshall. I had taken the first visit, and I wasn’t impressed. I was like, “No. I’m not coming here,” and Sonny came in a week later and brought me back.

Supposedly, I was his first recruit. He clearly had done some research on me, because one of the first things he said to me was, “Okay, so I hear you have these dreams about playing in the NFL,” and for me, my mom always taught me you have to be able to say it if you’re going to believe it. I always would talk about, “I want to play in the NFL.” It was pretty notable I didn’t know he knew it. He became the first person, other than my mom and my dad and maybe my family … And I don’t know even how my brothers and sisters thought about it … But he was the first person outside of my blood family to make the case like I could do it.

He said to me, “Son, here’s what I’ll tell you. If you come here and you’re good enough, I’ll at least get you a try out.”

That was such a guarantee to me, because I felt like, “Okay. I’m going to get good enough. I’m going to work.” We won maybe eight games or so over my four years, but when I came in … Again, my confidence could come off extremely arrogant. I guess, sometimes I wasn’t running around saying, “Oh, I’m so good. I’m going to play in the NFL.” I was just saying I was going to play in the NFL. I guess when somebody says that, and you’re saying that at Marshall University when you’re not winning that many games, people look at you like, “What’s he even talking about?” I didn’t start until the third game of the season, but I ended up having a really good freshman year. I was freshman of the year on the team, and all these kinds of different awards and stuff. I was super excited, so I was thinking, “When I go into the coach’s meeting after the season, he’s going to be telling me all this good stuff. I couldn’t wait to get there.

I walk in, I sit down, and he is sitting there. He had this real imposing … He just seemed so powerful in his seat. He sort of looks at me, and he says, “How many guys do you think on this football team will play on Sunday?”

You don’t want to say you’re nobody, but I was like, “I don’t know. Maybe two or three.”

He says, “How many guys in the conference that we played against do you think will make it?”

I was like, “I don’t know. Maybe 10 or so. I don’t know.”

He said, “Let me just help you. It’s probably not going to be very many, and if you think that you’ve done enough to play on Sunday this year just because you’ve got a few awards or something like that … You’re not good enough, yet.”

I’m thinking, “What’s good enough.” He did that to me all three years. Every single year, he would always remind me, “Oh you’re all-conference and you’re all this. Well that means nothing. There’s a ton of guys who have been all-conference out of Marshall, and they’re humble. They’re sitting at home.” I couldn’t understand why he kept doubting me. I got big from one touch down in my senior year. I’m kind of on my way, and then he literally meets me at the hash mark after I get beat. I get beat on the opposite end of the field, and he literally meets me at the hash mark and tells me, “Son, that’s it. You blew it. You’ll never make it.”

In my head … I’m not saying this to him, but in my head I’m like, “This was the first touchdown all year. It’s the first touchdown I’ve given up all year.” Then, I was so petrified to go in to see him in the meeting because I’m thinking, “The scouts and none of that stuff even matters now because of that touchdown. That’s going to be it.” He told me, “Son, let me just tell you this. Not only are you going to make it, but you’re going to be good at it.” I didn’t even really know what to say, but those words meant so much to me and inspired me to put in all of the work that I put in. I put in a lot of work because I didn’t want to let him down. I understood exactly at that point what he had done.

Jeremy Turner:

He was keeping you hungry and humble.

Carl Lee:

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jeremy Turner:

He’d likely seen enough of the superstars who were superstars in their own head and let that get to them.

Carl Lee:

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jeremy Turner:

He was obviously an inspiration for you for a long time, but growing up before you met Sonny, who inspired you? Where do you find your inspiration nowadays?

Carl Lee:

Robert Alexander was the guy. I was a freshman and he was a senior in high school. I trailed him through youth sports through junior high through high school, and he was being the best back in the nation coming out of high school. Some of the top, most notable coaches came to South Charleston High School to talk to him and to see him. He was the guy who taught me how to train and the relevance of training. He used to ride his bike to Kanawha City from Spring Hill, which is on the west side of South Charleston. It used to be Spring Hill and Charleston, but now it’s just South Charleston over beyond Thomas Hospital, and all that kind of stuff on that end … He used to ride his bike to Kanawha City. The first thing I wanted to do was get a bike and ride to Kanawha City.

Anything that he would do I wanted to do. He taught me about training. He taught me not to drink. He taught me not to smoke. He used to tell me all these kinds of things. Life changed on him. He had some very difficult times for him. He ended up going to WVU and had some issues around drugs, injuries, and all of that. We’ve had lots and lots of conversations since that. One of the conversations that I had with him was that all of the things that he told me I appreciated and that I know his life was tough. His dad passed away, and being at WVU and getting hurt … All of those things happening at one time. I can’t say I understand why that happened, but I see what happened and what his reasonings were.

I was disappointed in him, and I told him, “I was disappointed because you helped make me the player I was, and I never got the chance to be on the field with you and be even. I deserve the right to tackle you. I deserve the right for you to run over me. I wanted the opportunity to show you what you did. I wanted that opportunity and you didn’t give it to me.” People don’t understand why I still praise him, because they say if you can touch one person, you’ve done something great. For that one person, if I’m the only person that he touched, I appreciate it. He did something well for me. He did something that changed my life. I owe him that praise in spite of his faults.

Jeremy Turner:

Seeing how he came before you and then seeing how things ended up for him, is that part of what drives you to do what you do now?

Carl Lee:

Yes, because I wasn’t him. I didn’t get those coaches coming to see me. I realized that my success in the league or at the pro level was greater than his, but yet he was the best back in the nation coming out of high school. Kids now that aren’t the best guy in the country, they can be like me, but they don’t know. They think that the guy that’s the number one guy now, the process is that guy will be the number one guy when he goes to college, and then he’ll go and go to the pros. It doesn’t really work like that.The kid that’s 155 pounds graduating from high school, reports to Marshall at 164, leaves there at 184, and plays at the NFL level at 188 … That was a nobody and that was just another guy on the team that my defensive back coach in 11th grade says to me, and I loved him to death … He was a great coach.

He told me he was going to put me at safety until they found somebody. I’m the kid who is at youth football, my first year going up for youth football, and we’re at the first game. I don’t have a helmet and I quit. My dad said, “Okay.” I guess he was bothered by it too, but he was like, “Okay, but you’ll never quit again.” The next year that I came back and from then on, I always played. Look where I got. The parents that are going crazy at the kids at youth football because they’re not playing, I was a guard. I was an offensive guard. You can’t move any further from a guard to a defensive back during the process. It’s all about just the lessons.

Every level of sports, for me, was a lesson. I did the work. I played every single game that we played at Marshall like I wanted to play on Sunday. My role on my football team would have been to be the best player that I could be. I don’t know if you, as the other safety or the other corner with the quarterback or the running back … I don’t know what you’re thinking. I don’t know that, “We’re down 20 to nothing. You’re going to shut it down.” I don’t know that. What I know though is my role is to fulfill my dream. People would transfer and say, “I’m going somewhere else.” I was playing, and I was playing for a guy who was in the NFL. I’m not leaving.

Jeremy Turner:

You obviously knew what it took to get there. 

Carl Lee:

Yes. I wanted that lesson. Yes. Absolutely. I needed somebody who knew. I wanted to be close. The problems that we have with parents is they’re looking at the name. It doesn’t matter what they …It’s the work that we can all see. If you’re looking at your kid and he’s not playing, ask yourself, “What’s the work he’s putting in?” Don’t look at who’s playing.

Jeremy Turner:

Right.

Carl Lee:

Just look at that work because that work is going to build your bio.

Jeremy Turner:

The things that you can control, right?

Carl Lee:

Yes.

Jeremy Turner:

You’ve got your mindset and your work ethic, and that’s it.

Carl Lee:

That’s all you’ve got.

Jeremy Turner:

Your mindset was developed though. It’s like you embraced this “I’m an underdog” mentality and “I don’t really care what you think. I’m just going to go do my thing. I’m going to work my tail off.” Where do you think that mental toughness and that mindset was cultivated in you? Where did that come from?

Carl Lee:

It was really kind of easy because it came from my mom. Again, maybe even in part my dad. My dad was tough on me. We used to sit down the day after a game. We didn’t address the game on game day, game night, or whatever, but the next day we’d sit and have breakfast. We would talk about specific plays that I missed. I couldn’t understand. I could have been the player of the week in high school, and he’s still talking about the plays that I missed. I couldn’t understand it. It used to make me mad because, “What about these plays?” I look now, in hindsight, what he knew was, “You can’t have those plays.” He knows that they’re going to happen, but he didn’t want me to think about the plays and just thinking, “That’s okay.” It’s the bad plays that will keep you out.

Looking at my mom, she used to work at Stone & Thomas in Charleston. She used to work the elevators. I watched her change her life, all of a sudden deciding she wants to become a police officer. Then, her birthday was two or three days past the final date to be a certain age, so they denied her an opportunity to go to the … What’s it called? The Academy. She fought it. She took it to court and she won. She went to the Academy, she got out, and she passed it. Then, when she got out, they put her in some of the more difficult places to make it as hard as they could for her. Everybody in those areas embraced her. She would later go on and become our own Chief of Police in Dunbar. She always used to tell me about, “You have to be able to say what you want, and you can’t let anybody talk you out of it.” She didn’t mean to brag about it, but if you want something, if you can’t say it out loud then you don’t believe it.

Jeremy Turner:

And then to fight for it if you feel you’re being dealt with unjustly.

Carl Lee:

Yes, because if I say it, and then all of a sudden you say, “You’re not going to make that,” I can’t let you convince me that’s not going to happen.

Jeremy Turner:

How do these lessons that you’ve learned about mental toughness, hard work, and some of the things that you’ve seen along the way … Whether it’s lessons from your dad, from your mom, from Robert Alexander, from Sonny … How have you taken these learnings and these lessons? You’re obviously not playing in the League anymore. How have you taken these lessons and applied them to what you’re doing nowadays?

Carl Lee:

I try to push these off on parents and youth sports through the city. Mayor Mullens does a great job with youth sports here specifically for South Charleston. It’s still difficult to try to get the message across to parents of what is right, because it’s hard to say what’s right for your kid. It’s not really fair for me to say what’s right for your kid, but if you’re trying to get them down on a path, then you have to have gone down the path. You have to kind of understand what the path requires. That’s a hard lesson to learn. There are things that you know about, the businesses that you have been a part of, and you understand the dynamics. You know what it takes every single day. For me to try to just say, “I can do what Jeremy does any time. I can just walk in and do it, or try to critique it without knowing,” it doesn’t make sense.

I think somewhere in this generation, hopefully I’m going to be able to break through to somebody, to some parent, to some kid. Part of the Legends Building Legends … and you and I have talked about it, because we’ve been involved with this for a long time and had a lot of conversations … It’s not about just the football player trying to get to another football player. It’s a teacher trying to get to a future teacher. It’s an accountant trying to get a future accountant. A doctor trying to get to a future doctor. Those are all legends in our community. Those are all people that have meaningful work to do. They all have an impact on the future success of someone, somebody, and certain groups of people. We’re starting in an area that we know. Randy and I feel like sports is what we know.

Me and you have talked about the transition from high school to college, how difficult that is, and how many parents don’t really know. They just think that you just leave high school and go. There’s so much paperwork and all those kinds of things that needs to be done that they don’t know. We’ve talked about, “How can we get that information out to them?” We’ve been working with Dale Lee, who’s the president of the Teacher’s Association of West Virginia, talking about the tutoring and understanding of what has to be done and how it has to be done in high school. We’re trying to make this about people who have traveled a path. I don’t know that path. I went through it, but I don’t know it well enough to teach it.

I couldn’t tell a parent all of the academic requirements, where you can go for grants, and how to do your financial aid. That’s something that you’re an expert in and working in that area. I might not be able to have that legend, being able to talk to these parents, but they can have a resource to get in front of. If not, those places that are outside of the city and sometimes inside of the city, they just don’t know. Parents don’t know. They don’t know GPAs. They don’t know core classes. They don’t know financial aid. You’re not supposed to, unless it’s something that …So I’m just trying to make all of the legends in all areas to be willing to come in and show that path so that our kids have something to see and something to learn.

Jeremy Turner:

It’s a cool journey you’re on, and I’m thankful to have been on this journey with you. Obviously, it’s ongoing, right?

Carl Lee:

Yeah.

Jeremy Turner:

There’s still work to be done, but let’s say at some point in the future you’re looking back, when would you feel like you’ve succeeded in this work? What’s that going to look and sound like?

Carl Lee:

I think for those kids who participate in the Combine this year, if they come back next year and they’re 40 times faster, and not just faster because you’re older but faster because you put work in it, I think that would be good. For the kid who’s struggling academically but is a good athlete, who all of a sudden has to now realize that the grades are going to be more important than you think. For the kid who thinks being cool, tough, hard, and all that kind of stuff, that would follow some of the notable NFL players who have blown their careers and being that guy is going to be cool and it’s okay, if I could see those changes, that is the start of people understanding that, “I need to learn from you.”

A parent is like, “I need to get to that guy. I need to talk to him because I’ve got a kid who really wants to go to college. She wants to be a doctor and I don’t have any money saved up for school. How do I get there? You have the knowledge to get her there.” If a dad comes to me and says, “Hey, I’ve got a son who really wants to play professional football” or “He wants to play college football” or “He just wants to be great in high school” … “What do I need to do with him? How do I train him?” I can help you with that. Creating these jobs, so to speak, and these little neighborhood shops that you can stop by and get some information from. I look at Legends Building Legends as that kind of a one-stop shop of information for people who want to be successful and for people who can admit that they don’t know how to get there.

There’s a high school coach, there’s a middle school coach, there’s a youth football coach who does not know the process, and faking it only hurts the kids. There are parents who don’t know how to get their kid to college and how to get their kid better. Their kid, who walks around the house and says, “I want to play in the NBA. I want to play in college,” and maybe it’s just the mom there. Mom wants that for him, but she has no idea what the process is, what the path looks like, or where you even make the left turn to get on. She doesn’t know. Maybe we can be that place that she can find out.

Jeremy Turner:

We’re going to see, because it’s happening.

Carl Lee:

Yes. Yes.

Jeremy Turner:

It’s happening. People listening to this may hear you talk about athletes, football players, and such, but there’s obviously more to it than football and athletes. Take a minute and talk about people listening to this and why they should care about the people you’re serving and the work that you’re doing.

Carl Lee:

If you’re just a person out there, maybe you don’t have kids or you don’t have a connection to this, my mom always used to tell me from when she was a cop. Always giving back, always reflecting back. I think being from West Virginia, we should all be linked because everybody sees us the same way in that we’re not supposed to be successful. I can remember being in Minnesota and guys not even knowing we’re Marshall. Anthony Carter used to always give a Marshall update of winning or losing on game day at the pre-game, usually breakfast unless it was an evening game. He’d always call out what happened with Marshall. With that being said, I think where we have to look is we have to look at West Virginia, and we have to look and be mindful of what’s happening to our youth. We can reach back. We have the opportunity to reach back and pull, even if it’s not our kid … We have the opportunity to bring kids along in a positive path. We can opt-out of that, and we already see the path that they’re going.

It’s clear what West Virginia is. It’s clear that we see what the drugs and things like that are doing because there is no other positive. There’s no other options for a lot of kids. When you start talking about these outlining areas, where there’s not a downtown, not this, and not that, we have to go into those places. They’re our people …There’s a doctor in there. There’s a lawyer in there. There’s a teacher in there. There’s a dentist in there. There’s a superstar in there. They don’t know if we don’t go. You can sit and wait for the next star, the next doctor, or whatever. You can sit and wait. We’ve heard this, “Nothing comes out of there. We don’t know about anybody coming out of that school.” If you’re saying that, then you need to get into that school.

If you’re that successful and you have the capabilities to say that out of your mouth, then you must be somewhere, have gotten somewhere, or have some form of success, because you’re judging that. If you’re going to judge that, then maybe you need to go do some fishing. Maybe you need to get in there and throw out some bait so you can get somebody out of there, because I think that becomes the problem. I can understand somebody outside of West Virginia saying, “There’s not going to be any great athletes in West Virginia.” I was told that I had to be able to workout anytime because no one’s going to stop or make a special trip to Marshall. If they’re coming east, then they’ll stop on their way through. If they’re going west, they’ll stop on their way through. They’re not going to make you a scheduled appointment.

Jeremy Turner:

They’re going to see somebody else, right?

Carl Lee:

Yeah. They’re going to be on their way to see somebody else. They’re not just going to be there. People on the outside don’t see us as being worth coming to see or worthy of. Why would we look at ourselves that way?

Jeremy Turner:

How do you think growing up in West Virginia, and especially in the town you grew up in West Virginia and the time you grew up, how do you think that’s shaped you? You talked a little bit about it just now, but how has that made you who you are?

Carl Lee:

Probably everything. It’s probably the very foundation and the roots of everything else that my mom would tell me, because there were so many different things. I can remember South Charleston, and some people may say it’s still that way. I can remember South Charleston when it wasn’t about whoever was giving money to the school. I can remember in youth football if your dad was coaching, you were probably going to be at the skilled position. I can’t imagine me ever looking like a lineman. There’s just nothing about that.

Whoever was the running back, whoever was the quarterback, whoever was the receiver, or whatever … I kind of think I could have played that position if maybe there wasn’t a dad there. There were a lot of things said to me and a lot of things that I experienced that could have made me say, “I never want to come back there.” We have a lot of athletes that are like that, but my family was here. Now, I feel like my work is here. I’m in a job that absolutely gives me the opportunity and the freedom to be able to do things around youth and have a chance to do this. I oversee the football program that I played in youth football.

Jeremy Turner:

How cool is that?

Carl Lee:

There’s just nothing better than that. It’s still challenging, but watching these kids and trying to get them to understand that you don’t have to cry and you don’t have to worry about this. Just keep playing. Somebody was doing that for me. Now, I get to do that for them.

Jeremy Turner:

Love it.

Carl Lee:

Yeah.

Jeremy Turner:

You’ve talked a little bit about the need to pay it forward. People have poured in for you and you’ve had certain opportunities in your life that you feel very blessed about. You’ve likely heard me use this phrase, “Hero of Change.” I throw it around a lot because it’s meaningful for me. When you hear that term, “Hero of Change,” what does that mean to you? Why do you think it’s so important for everyday people, like you and I, to stand up and go do stuff?

Carl Lee:

The toughest part of that is the “hero,” because you, me … You know what I’m saying? You don’t necessarily need it or want the credit for that, but it’s something that you hope someone would say. You’re like, “I could say that for you, and you would say that about me.”

Jeremy Turner:

But we wouldn’t say it about ourselves.

Carl Lee:

Yeah. You don’t say it about yourself. Right. You connect, so I can connect with you as the Hero of Change. When I connect as the “hero” to the word “change,” anything after that is all to the good. Do you know what I mean? You’re changing something. I know who you are, so I know the change and we’ve talked about the changes that you want to make. We’re talking about trying to get kids in higher education to touch it, experience it, and just the importance of what it does for you in the future. That change is probably as big as any change. Again, inside of that and from high school to college, I don’t care if you put that in sports, education, or just trying to go because you’re supposed to go … If you create that change, my job gets a whole lot easier.

Jeremy Turner:

I want to make your life easy, Carl.

Carl Lee:

Exactly.

Jeremy Turner:

That’s my mission. That’s my new mission.

Carl Lee:

There’s going to be parents that are going to be happy, because all of a sudden, their kid wants to go to college and they understand what the process is. Change, to me, a hero, change still remains the biggest piece. To hear you talk about the different types of things that we’ve talked about, the way you want to change things to make it simpler, easier, through a process, and through an app,, that makes me see the hero in that change. Again, as you’ve said earlier, we don’t want to say that about ourselves, but the reality of it as you hear it that way … And I know you can probably kick it back on my side … But when you hear it that way, it is hard for you to kick that out of your head and say, “Okay. Yeah, that would make a hero if I can do all of that and if I can get that done?”

Jeremy Turner:

If somebody else did it, they would be a hero …

Carl Lee:

Exactly.

Jeremy Turner:

… But when I do it, we’re just doing it.

Carl Lee:

Just what you’re doing. That’s just what I do. I don’t need any pat on the backs or whatever, but yes you do. Yes, we would. We would want that. Do you know what I’m saying? I’m not saying we would want it, but it’s what to do. When I hear, what rings true to me and what’s out front of that is the change, I’m looking for who’s going to those heroes for that change. It doesn’t matter who the hero is as long as they create the change and as long as they present the change.

Jeremy Turner:

We’ve got some change that needs to occur in our world, our country, and our state.

Carl Lee:

Absolutely.

Jeremy Turner:

I don’t know about you, but I travel West Virginia a fair amount and even outside of West Virginia as well, but I hear in communities especially where there might be some distress or maybe a loss of hope that everybody is waiting for somebody else. They’re waiting for the government, some rich person, or somebody else to come and make things better. Why do you think it’s so important for everyday people, like you and I, to go be the change?

Carl Lee:

Randy and I have had a conversation about this. Sometimes you’ll hold a title or a reputation that is good, bad, or indifferent, and it almost forces you to be the guy.

Jeremy Turner:

Expectations, right?

Carl Lee:

Yes. Yes. I think it comes to expectation and that bruising side of you. I watch people train kids and talk to kids about different things, and I hear them. I’m sitting there in my head, and I’m like, “That’s not really right. I’m not sure he just said the right thing,” or something like, “Oh, that’s way wrong. He’s totally wrong.” Then, not to get involved … I don’t know how just on a simplistic side. Coaching defensive backs … I don’t know anything about it specifically, but I was taught a whole lot about it.

There are people who teach defensive backs who know nothing about it. No one has told them anything about it, which means that they still do not know nothing. Then, the kid has then been forced to play and trying to be great based on just an athletic ability. To say, “Don’t get beat deep” or “Stay deep. You can’t miss that tackle,” that is not coaching. That is not teaching your defensive back, because yes, you can get beat deep. Yes, you will miss the tackle. How do you back peddle? How do you open? What are the details of it? When you do get beat, what was the reason you got beat?

Jeremy Turner:

Learn from your mistake, right?

Carl Lee:

Yes. Yes. I’ve literally tried to work with high schools and said, “I want to talk to the parents. I’ll train them, but I want to train them early in the morning … Like 5:30 in the morning, because I want the commitment.”

Jeremy Turner:

Right.

Carl Lee:

I want the commitment. I want them to be committed. That’s what time I worked out. I was willing to get up early in the morning and work with the athletes, and I even said, “Give me the athlete that you think is great or good, but just as they’re working or is in trouble. Give me that kid, and let me try to work on them.” I didn’t get any movement on it. I don’t even know if the coaches even bothered to talk about it to a parent.

Jeremy Turner:

What a missed opportunity.

Carl Lee:

Yeah. To me, I don’t claim to know. I was taught this, but I was taught this from what is arguably one of the best defensive back coaches ever in football. I have the ability to just say what he said to me. It’s not me. It’s not me. I didn’t get to pro ball until he got there. Until Pete Carroll came to Minnesota, that was my run of defensive back. When I went to State, we had three first team all-conference defensive backs and one second team of the four that started. That has nothing to do with me. That has all to do with this other guy. All I’m doing is saying, “If he says blue, I tell them blue.”

Jeremy Turner:

It takes a certain amount of humility to not let yourself get wrapped up in a 12-year professional career, Viking top 50 … “I’m the man. I know this stuff.” It takes a certain amount of humility to say, “Yes, I did these things. Here’s how I was able to do these things, and here’s what’s been embedded in me from other people. Let me pass that along,” rather than saying that you were the owner of all knowledge.

Carl Lee:

Oh yeah. I’m very comfortable in giving the credit where it was due. Sonny played me perfectly to make me work. The coaches that I had prior to Sonny Randle, and then I had Tony Dungy as the d coordinator. Then, I had Willie Shaw as a defensive back coach after Pete … Arguably some of the best defensive back brains in NFL history. To have that luxury, there’s nothing I knew and there’s nothing that I know greater than what they knew and told me.

Jeremy Turner:

That’s good stuff.

Carl Lee:

Sometimes we think when somebody teaches us stuff, and we walk around a football field, we know all this information. I only know my information. I only got good, and maybe some people would say great, to make a 50 greatest on an NFL team because of the information that I got. I didn’t start out like that. I wasn’t playing like in my earlier years. It took me, I think, my sixth or seventh year for my first Pro Bowl. It took somebody to come in, who said something to me that made sense to me and I could understand it, that elevated my game. I was perfect with bump and run, but I didn’t know it. Somebody had to tell me that.

For me, I had this information, and I had one high school. I had one high school and I talked to several high schools. I had one high school ask me to actually come up, talk with their coaches about it, and talk to a couple of their quarterbacks about it. I appreciated it. I appreciate it. I’ve talked to people. I’ve talked to coaches, but it didn’t go anywhere. That’s okay, but man … Some of these athletes are better than me when I was at that age, and what if they had the information that somebody gave me? I’d love to give it to them, but it’s probably going to be different than what their coach has given. I understand him not wanting that, but is this about me, you, or is it about the kid?

Jeremy Turner:

I think that’s an important point. We’ve talked about that quite a lot. People need to get out of the way and stop being an obstacle.

Carl Lee:

Right.

Jeremy Turner:

They should be the gateway. I could talk to you all day, and I love when we get together. I look forward to getting together again soon, but I don’t want to keep you on here all day. I want to move towards wrapping up with just a couple more questions, quick ones. This is your two-part question.

Carl Lee:

Okay.

Jeremy Turner:

What is the legacy you want to leave behind when everything is said and done? What advice or words of wisdom would you give to people out there who may be listening who have an idea, dream, or a calling, and maybe they’re feeling a little scared or maybe a little frustrated. Maybe they’re getting a lot of push back from people around them.

What’s your legacy that you want to leave behind, and what advice would you give to people out there who have an idea to go be the change?

Carl Lee:

If I could do to someone, and create an avenue and a belief to one person, that Robert did for me, Sonny did for me, or my mom did for me … It would just be a small fingerprint, but I’d be satisfied with that. I’d be satisfied completely with that. If I could just take somebody who had no hope and thought they had no chance … I’m not saying I didn’t have some hope. I had a desire to be it, but with the people to show me that it is doable and it is attainable, I would be satisfied. I could literally go home peacefully knowing if I could just touch that one person and see them grade a field and make a play, then I’m done. I’d be satisfied with that.

Jeremy Turner:

I’m pretty sure that’s coming if it hasn’t already happened.

Carl Lee:

Yeah.

Jeremy Turner:

What advice would you give to somebody, though? People who are listening to this may be someone who is like, “I have an idea. My heart is being pulled towards doing something,” but it’s not easy. You and I both know that going and doing something that pushes against the grain is not easy. What advice or final words of wisdom might you have for somebody?

Carl Lee:

Don’t assume it has to be big. Don’t assume that it has to be notable or visible. As an athlete and maybe even in a job like this, being who you are, you get notoriety. You get to do the podcast. You get to do media stuff and all that. It doesn’t have to be that. Don’t feel like you have to jump in at the top. The smallest thing … Just touch somebody and just invest something in something or somebody. Even if you can’t do it, invest somewhere that’s going to help West Virginia kids to get to college and to motivate them to want to be in college. If they don’t get to college, the chances for them to become that entrepreneur that is going to hit a home run … I’m not saying it’s impossible because I don’t rain on dreams, but there’s not going to be a lot of us that’s going to do that. A lot of us are going to have to put in some kind of work and some kind of grunt work somewhere. Just get in and help somewhere. Just somewhere, anywhere. Whatever peaks your interest or whatever sparks it, throw money at it, participate in it, or do something. Don’t do nothing and then sit around and complain about what somebody is doing.

Jeremy Turner:

That’s good. I heard a quote once. It was something like, “Don’t wake up every day for 80 years doing nothing and call that life.”

Carl Lee:

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That’s true.

Jeremy Turner:

Man, it’s been a pleasure spending a bit of time with you. I appreciate it as always, and I’m going to absolutely look forward to catching up with you again. How can people learn more about Legends Building Legends if they want to learn more?

Carl Lee:

Right now, our Facebook is up now. We have a Facebook account up now with Legends Building Legends. Our website will be back active supposedly this weekend, but give us maybe until Monday or Tuesday and you’ll see things about the Combine coming up on May 30th. That same night, there is a Stars and Stripes basketball game with Jason Williams, Randy Moss, and a ton of other guys. We’ll have Darryl Talley coming in. That’s also on May 30th at the Civic Center at 7:00 PM. It will be out there, and we’ll keep posting stuff as we go.

Jeremy Turner:

Awesome. Man, keep grinding.

Carl Lee:

I will.

Jeremy Turner:

I appreciate you, and we’ll get together again real soon. That’s all for this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. We hope that you’ve been inspired by something you’ve heard today because together, we are the change. Join us next time as we dig into the story of another Hero of Change and learn what they do, how they do it, and most importantly, why they do it. If you or someone you know has an amazing story and would like to be a guest on the Heroes of Change podcast, you can visit our website at yourepicmission.com/heroes-of-change-podcast. You can share your details, and we’ll see if we can get you on. In the meantime, take care and we’ll see you next time on the Heroes of Change podcast. Thanks so much.

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