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A Sit Down with Kenny and Charlotte Webb of Charleston Property Restoration

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As Part of the Heroes of Change Podcast

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Jeremy Turner, Founder & Managing Director at EPIC Mission:

Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. This is Jeremy Turner, Founder and Managing Director of EPIC Mission and I’ll be your host here on the podcast. We are highlighting the trials, victories, and applied wisdom of our community change agents, unsung heroes, and those who empower them to be the change across Appalachia and beyond. We seek to inspire and equip everyday heroes just like you to take on our greatest challenges because together, we are the change. And today I’m super thrilled. I get to welcome my first dynamic duo to the show. Welcome, Team Webb! We’ll get to you here in just a minute, but first let me read a little snippet about you to give our listeners a taste. So Kenny Webb and his wife, Charlotte own Charleston Property Restoration. CPR has been in business since 2018 with the Webbs having started this business with an eye towards improving their neighborhoods one house at a time. The Webbs also have a vision for helping the families in their neighborhoods, working to ignite restoration in their lives. With the opioid epidemic and the exploding need for foster care, they knew this was an area where they could have some impact. They are currently foster parents and consider themselves ambassadors promoting the need for more people to step up and become foster parents themselves. Charlotte and Kenny are also aware of the difficulties facing those trying to re-enter society after having spent time incarcerated due to their own personal battle with opioid addiction as well as other addictions. Team Webb is trying to grow their business so they might offer training and employment opportunities not currently available to people experiencing barriers to employment due to their past circumstances. Awesome stuff; inspiring. And this is why you’re here today. So welcome to the Heroes of Change podcast, Team Webb.

Charlotte Webb, Charleston Property Restoration:

Hello.

Kenny Webb, Charleston Property Restoration:

Thanks for having us.

Jeremy:

Absolutely. This will be fun. So you know, everybody’s got a bio these days, you know, I share often that you can go on LinkedIn or somebody’s Facebook profile and read about them, but we know that that’s only a portion of who they are. So if you would take a minute and let’s go beyond the bio and tell us a little bit more about who you are and the work that you do, things that maybe aren’t appearing in the bio there.

Kenny:

Well, I’ve always had a knack, I guess you could say for working construction, even though that was not my primary employment. I’ve been doing it since 1985 when I got my first house. I started remodeling and I’ve had some training with them. I’m mostly self-help. So I’ve learned the hard lessons. I know some of the things that not to do as well as some of the things that I do need to do. And it’s, it’s been an incredible journey to where I’m at now. And when I retired from my primary job, it was always start a business one day and just kept putting it out one day. Never got there. It was always, you know, next year, wait one day, next year. And finally, after much coercion from, I took the plunge one day in March, I said today’s the day and it went by all my paperwork and hey, I was a small business solver and then the worry and scare began. So what do I do now? So, and thankfully people like you, Jeremy were just so encouraging and helpful and helping us get our feet on the ground and get started. I can’t thank you enough for all that you’ve done for both of us to help us to get going to where we are now. We wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for you and an EPIC Mission. So thank you for you and your beautiful wife.

Jeremy:

Absolutely. We’re just living out our purpose here, too. So, you know, so I guess at this point you’ve been around, it’s about two years, right? You’re about to have a two-year birthday. And you said you know, you went, you filed your paperwork and now you’re a business owner. Not really a background in small business ownership or entrepreneurship. What’s the journey been like and what are some of the maybe early learnings you’ve had, mistakes, failures, we call them whatever, but what are some of the things you’ve learned along your journey thus far?

Kenny:

That you’d need to charge and stuff to be profitable. I have a heart to help people. I mean I’ll come help you for nothing. You fixed the dinner. I’m there to work all day long. But when you’re a small business owner, you gotta work for more than beans. So that’s been a struggle trying to get the price line where it needs to be, where I’m not going to, I’m working all day for nothing. When it comes down to pay the bills, if there is enough money to pay the bills for your employer, I do have one employee, my, our son works with us and you know, you’ve got to make sure that his needs are taken care of as well. So it’s been a learning curve as to what to do. Don’t get discouraged. You’re going to make mistakes. I made mistakes. I’ve made plenty of them. You go out there, you think a job will take you a certain amount of time. And before you know it, you’re in there twice as long as you thought it would take because of the uh-ohs that come up. Unexpected stuff, you know, there’s going to be those moments. And when you have those types of lessons, they stick with you and you’ll know next time to allow for stuff like that. So just tell people, don’t get discouraged. You’re going, it’s not going to be peaches and cream. You’re going to have the bad days. You’re going to step into the poo poo. Don’t worry about it. It’ll all come out in the end. 

Charlotte:

I think one thing,just to brag on Kenny, a little bit, one of the things I think that he intuitively knew was just to treat people with honor. And so when he goes in to do a job you know, he doesn’t accept payment until they’re satisfied. And so it just instills trust and people, I feel like his reputation precedes him because of the way that he treats people. And I mean, he’s very good at his work, but I feel like his work ethic and his heart supersedes all of those things. 

Jeremy:

Those are great points. 

Kenny:

A lot of our work, unfortunately, we’re going in and finishing or correcting stuff from where people have had bad experiences, you know, contractors, some of them create a bad name for all of us and most of my work is going in and correct what somebody else started and the homeowners who take them for piles and piles of money. And now I’m in here trying to correct it without causing them piles and piles of more expense on top of that. 

Jeremy: 

Yeah, you know, that’s an unfortunate thing with most any industry. I see it more than I would like in my business as well. But you know, the fact that, and I can speak to the quality of your work and your heart because I’ve hired you before too, so I can absolutely speak to that. And it’s been, it’s fantastic. Do you think that, you know, you mentioned when you, when you bought your first home back in the 80s, and you start tinkering and remodeling and you learn the hard way sometimes you know, hey, this is not exactly the way to do it. There’s a better way in reflection. Do you think maybe that’s actually prepared you for life as a business owner, as an entrepreneur?

Kenny:

Absolutely. If, if it was easy, anybody could do it. You know, the truly successful people that I’ve encountered when we sit down and we’re talking, you know, at a job site or if we meet up somewhere to gas station getting gas and we’re just standing there talking at the gas pumps, we’ve all had those failures, those hard lessons. And you know, when you talk to the others that they’ve been through it, it makes you feel better about yourself that, you know, hey, I’m not the only one out here that has done this. So there are others. It’s not just me. There are plenty of people out here that have experienced the same, have learned these hard, hard lessons and just don’t get discouraged. I can’t emphasize that enough.

Jeremy:

Life as an entrepreneur can feel super lonely and isolated because not everyone is an entrepreneur. And so it can oftentimes feel like you’re the only one who is feeling this way or thinking this or experiencing this thing. So I think you hit on something really critical is the need to you know, in an earlier session I had someone say that you need to find your tribe, you know, surround yourself with other people who may believe as you believe and can with whom you can commiserate a bit and discuss things and talk things through. So I think that’s a crucial point that you made. You know, you’ve got a really, you’re more than a home restoration business. There’s another side to it. And it touched on in the intro, but I’d want to dig into this a little more.

You know, I’ve worked with lots of different types of businesses through my time doing what I do. You know, ones that are considered social enterprises. Social enterprise is a business that is focused on and motivated by both doing good and doing well. So a financial profit and also a social profit doing some sort of good in the world. Coalfield Development is an organization that is focused on employment for those who have traditional barriers to employment, which it sounds like that’s something that you’re very passionate about. Can you speak a little bit more about your mission, what it is you’re trying to do and for whom?

Charlotte:

Well, I think to do that, to back up a little bit, we are not originally from West Virginia. We moved here six years ago and really the instant we moved here just something happened in our hearts about people. We instantly fell in love with West Virginia and West Virginians. And just you know, hearing the statistics and just seeing the hearts of the people in West Virginia and knowing that for some of them they have adopted that identity. And I think coming from the outside, we could see their true hearts. We could see the people as they were, who are just such beautiful, kind, generous people. And so for whatever reason, I think just through a time of prayer and you know, praying for our state and for the people and wanting to see healing and restoration, come, the Lord really just planted some ideas and dreams in our hearts. And so, I don’t know if we ever really started out to be business owners per se. It was more we wanted to position ourselves in a way that could bring hope and help and healing. And so Kenny was still working at the railroad. He’d been there 30, 35 years and they wanted to relocate us to New York. And I told him I would miss him because I was like, I cannot leave. I love this, this is my home. And so that’s when he retired. And you know, that’s how all that kind of started just like, well, what could we do? Well, you know, he knew he has a gift for building and construction. And so we said, well, you know, we could use that not only to you know, restore homes but to help restore families as well, because in order to restore the state, in order to restore communities, that’s about restoring people. And so we started just seeing that whole thing, that whole vision just open up like, oh, well we can do the work, but we can train others to do the work. We can employ others to do the work. And even in the last few weeks, we feel like it’s just kind of exploded in our own hearts about, you know, oh my gosh, we can add this, we could do this. We can open up different avenues you know, for employment for people. And so that, that’s kind of the, the backstory of how that came about.

Jeremy:

Love it. There’s a story behind everything and that’s part of what I’m, you know, again, what this podcast is about is pulling out the real stories of real people that have, you know, real lives that are not always neat and tidy and clean. You know, and with what you’re hoping to do with the employment piece is there’s something amazing that happens when you take someone who is downtrodden and hopeless and not employed and you know, you get them back working. You know, you give them purpose and you give them, you help them help restore their dignity and their place in this earth and they become contributing members of society again. Are these things that, you know, you’ve thought about this before. Have you seen this before? You want to talk about what it is that you hope to do for people?

Charlotte:

Well, I I don’t know. What have we seen? 

Kenny:

Well, we have firsthand knowledge. Unfortunately, people that come out of being incarcerated, especially if they have drug charges, that there’s nothing out there available for them. There’s no assistance. There’s no job placement. There’s no welfare money, you know, there’s nothing they come out, there’s nothing waiting over there. They’re on their own. They’ve got fines. They’ve got to pay from their common jail. Driver’s license. They’ve got no transportation to get around. And they’ve really got really no hope in the future. They don’t have a car, they can’t get the job. People are reluctant to hire felons. They’re reluctant to hire them because of their past mistakes. Even though they’ve been rehabilitated or however you wanna word that; paid their debts. So, and that’s why so many of them ended up right back in there because they go right back to what they know. They know that they can go back to dealing the drugs. They know there’s money there. They’ve got no hope of digging themselves out of that hole that they’re in. It’s that crackpot mentality. You know, one gets up so far, another reaches up and pulls him back down into the pot that is just hopeless. That’s why they end up back in jail after not a long length of time of the only thing they know, the only way they know to make money is to go back to their old ways. We’re looking to break that cycle, break those chains of bondage to, that’s the only way I can make money and try to help people realize that there’s more good than the end of the local dealers.

Charlotte:

Yeah. And I, you know, I think too, the Word talks about him who is forgiven much, loves much and we too have struggled with our own addictions and come out of that and had people who would come alongside us and you know, walked with us through that lameness you know, without reservation and gave us a second chance. And I can tell you, I, boy, West Virginia is doing an incredible job of trying to familarate some of these issues that you face. People coming through recovery, coming out of incarceration. I’ve just met some really amazing people who genuinely want to see people healed and restored and like you said, the dignity returned to them.

Jeremy:

Yeah. Then there’s so much work to be done yet still, you know, as you talked about, you know, the, when they go to jail, it’s supposed to be, that’s their that’s the method though, which they pay their debts to society for having broken the law. And yet they come out and it’s as though the debt continues and it continues to mount against them because of all these barriers to have, you know, I have this thing on my record and no one wants to hire me. I can’t get a driver’s license. I have fees and fines that are mounting up and continuing to grow. And yet I have no way to gain employment. So, you know, I think kudos to you for taking on this topic because it’s huge. And you know, if we want people to come out of jail, supposedly having paid their debt we need to get them back working, you know, so that they, so that we can help them break that cycle. So I think that’s awesome. The name of this podcast is the Heroes of Change. The tagline for my company is “Guiding the Heroes of Change.” And so, and you, you’ve heard me use this phrasing probably once or twice. When you hear that phrase Hero of Change, what does that mean to you and why do you think it’s so important for everyday people like you and I to get up and go be the change that we wish to see in the world?

Kenny:

Our grandson was three and they were living with us. They moved here from Kansas City and they were staying with us while they got settled in and three years old when he prophesied that our house was a house of superheroes.

We’re just trying to live up to the word that he prophesied over all of us.

Charlotte: 

And I, you know, I think because we have people say to us all the time like, oh gosh, it takes a special person to do that. Takes a special person to be a foster parent or, and we just look at each other like, nope, no, it doesn’t. You know, it just takes saying yes, just like how can I help? What can I do to affect change? And I mean I can tell you there’s really nothing special about us or I don’t feel like we really have any unique gifts other than we just see the need and we want to be part of you know, trying to bridge that gap. And so heroes, we want to be a superhero. That’s our goal. But right now we’re just regular people getting up and working.

Kenny:

Getting up every day whether I want to or not. And up and going at it. Again, yesterday was yesterday. Today’s a new day with new grace and new mercy and do the best you can today. But I will tell you and to anyone who is trying to move towards this or move into some sort of purpose or destiny in their lives, there are countless mornings that we get up at 4:45 every morning. We pray together before we do anything else. There have been countless mornings that we’ve just sat and cried and like, Lord, we’re not the ones, we don’t know how to do this. We don’t know what we’re doing. We don’t know how to price. We don’t know how to move ahead. We don’t know. You know, and it’s like just stay steady, stay engaged and I’ll give you open doors as far as you can see.

Jeremy:

That’s good counsel. And just to know, again, with this podcast, trying to pull back the curtain and let people see behind the scenes of real life. You know, we live in a wonderful country where it’s relatively easy to start a business. Unfortunately most businesses fail within the first five years and it’s largely because of a few things. It’s ego. It’s, I have no idea what I’m doing at all and I won’t, I don’t, I can’t ask for help. I don’t know how to ask for help, whatever. So I want to pull back the curtain a little bit and let people see that struggle is part of this. Right? And struggle strengthens you. There’s a great deal of learnings that can occur during the struggle. It pulls people together as well. And the struggle and that, you know, just because you’re struggling doesn’t mean that you’re failing. You know, one of the worst things I think we do in our culture is we teach that failure is not an option and we have people completely terrified to fail when a failure could be you know, you miss cut a board, right? You failed, you made a mistake. Really mistakes and failures within the world of entrepreneurship are often the same. We just, we think of failure as some huge monumental thing though. I absolutely sink the ship and if we fail, then that’s the worst thing ever. It becomes our own scarlet letter that we hang around our necks or wear on our heads and we are now failures because we have failed. So I appreciate you being open about some of your own struggles because I mean, you know, the thing is that that’s real. If, and you said it earlier, Kenny, if it were easy, someone else would do it. Why is it that that is so important for everyday people like you and I to get up when we recognize that there’s something that needs change when there’s a problem in society or a problem where a certain product or service doesn’t exist in the market, why is it so important that everyday average people like you and I get up and go take care of that?

Charlotte:

Well, I think for us, we don’t look at the issues as those issues or those people or you know, those problems. Like this is our city, this is our state, these are our people. This is our community that’s suffering. And you know, we have a role, we have a part in this. If one of us suffers, we all suffer. You know, if there is this large percentage of our community that is struggling with addiction and all the associated effects of that, that means the entire community is less than it could be if everybody was functioning in their full capacity, fully participating citizen and person and family member. So for us, it is personal, you know, because it’s, you know, it matters. We can’t be the best we can be without everyone else being the best they can be. So, you know, it’s like the old saying, a rising tide raises all ships so that, you know, that’s what I believe about our work. Anything we can do to make things better, it helps everybody, not just us. You know, it’ll help our business, but boy, it helps the entire community or helps every family. It helps all the state or region.

Kenny:

And sometimes we go out and will be working on property, maybe the homeowners are not physically able to get out and do what they want to be done. We’re sprucing up. We’re making it look nice and the people that live around will see that and they take pride and ownership of their home property and they say, look how nice that is, and the next thing you know you’ll look to the right and to the left and across the street and there are people out there raking leaves or picking up the trash, they’re nailing up that board that fell down six months ago and they’re taking pride in their place now because it’s just planting a seed there to, hey this could be better. I know my house was run down and I looked over there and that house used to look worse than mine. Mine looks worse. Let me go out here and do what I can do. Let me get a handful of nails and go out. I don’t want to be the low fruit on the tree. I want to be on up there with the better looking house.

Jeremy:

I think that that sense of community that you’re talking about of community really has to work two primary meanings. You’ve got the physical sense of the community, the buildings and the structures and the streets and all the infrastructure. But you’ve got the sense of community, right? The rights and responsibilities. And I think it’s too often it’s the responsibilities piece that people forget about. Right? You know, you’re a member of a community and you have privileges, but there are also responsibilities that come along with being a good member of society, of your community. And so, you know, I think that’s you know, I appreciate the fact that you’re stepping up and owning your responsibilities while also in a kind and loving way, encouraging others to embrace their responsibilities within the community as well. I think that’s cool.

Let’s fast forward a bit. You know, let’s say that we’re looking at, you know, some point in the future and you’re looking back on your work and CPR has really blossomed and become more of what the vision is for the business. And you’re looking back, when will you feel like you’ve succeeded in your work and you know, what’s the legacy that you want to leave behind? You know, what kind of change are you really fighting for with the CPR? That’s a big question. You can take it in two parts. When you feel like you’ve succeeded, what does success mean?

You know, we, we’ve already helped, I wouldn’t say we’ve built fandom. We’ve made family, we’ve made friends. There’s not a house that we’ve been into that we’ve not made friendships while we’re there. And that’s community, too. And we’re, I’m trying to instill that in our son, Charlie who works with me, that that’s what you’re striving for. You make these relationships. You want to be able to have a business that people will say, yeah, I have them in my house. They’re very nice. They did a wonderful job. They didn’t come in here, they didn’t drive into the building. They’re honest. They’re straightforward and they will help you if you need help. And I want that to be perpetuated, generating a thousand generations down. You know, I don’t want this to die when I die. I want this to keep going for Charlie and his children and any of our other children that we’re praying will come and become part of what we’re doing here. That, you know, it will, it will grow. It will just exponentially grow.

Charlotte:

Yeah. And I think one of the things we say all the time is when we go in to do a job, we want to, certainly we want it to be blessed. We want to, you know, make money for the work that we do, but our bigger desire is that we are a blessing, that it’s a win-win situation for everybody. So when we walk away, the people we work feel blessed, they feel honored. You know, and then the company grows. So I think short-term, right now, I mean, I feel like in a lot of ways we do feel successful in that we do feel like we’re accomplishing that, you know, one job at a time. Boy, but long-term, we just really, our prayer is that everybody that wants to work has a place to work. That’s where they can provide for their family, where they can provide a good living. You know, like again, just, bringing dignity to their family. That every man or woman that desires to do that has a place that they can go, they can fulfill their purpose and their destiny and be a part of something bigger than themselves. Not just going to a job, but really going to like, this is a day in my destiny. This is who I’m created to be. And that’s really, that’s what we’re going after. But I don’t know what that looks like.

Jeremy:

Well, you’re doing it, and that’s called marketplace ministry. You know, it’s operating with the spirit inside the traditional for-profit marketplace. So you know, you’re making a difference in the lives of other people. You’re inspiring others. And you know, I know that the future is bright because you’re going to be providing people a sense of purpose. And that’s a very, very noble thing. It’s not easy though. And you know this and you know, you said earlier that you guys get up every morning and you pray together. Sometimes, those mornings are, it’s tears. It’s, you know, you’re crying and feeling woeful. Talk about if you would for a minute, when have you really felt like, you know, we can’t do this anymore. When have you felt most discouraged, and why did you keep going? Why did you persist?

Kenny:

Last winter was the first winter doing it. The wintertime is always lean times for home improvement. Home projects. There was no work. We still had the bills coming in. You know, it was frustrating. It’s almost like, why am I beating my head against the wall to do this? And then this time of year comes around where it’s tax time. You know, you go through the winter time, Christmas time, people spent their money on Christmas just like we do. We all did that and they don’t have money for the home improvement stuff. So we’ve all got bills to pay. We all struggle with finances and the bills are still piling up. Things are still going on, there’s no work going on and you feel like you’re just overwhelmed. You want to give up on it, you know, I can just file bankruptcy and you know, say I tried and that’s over with. But I personally have a fear of failure. I hate to say with anything I can, and that’s what makes me go on personally. I’ll find a way. I go do the things that need to be done. You know, the jobs that I won’t say beneath the, but the small jobs, I’ll go out and do the 20 and $30, $30 coming in and I wouldn’t have, you know, I’m not, I’m not all about the big $10,000 remodel job. You need an outlet put in your house and put them out with it. You know, it’s just fear of failures. What keeps me going on, I don’t look back and say, you know, if I would’ve done this, I would’ve been all right. Or if I’m just stuck about two more weeks and everything would’ve been fine. That’s what keeps me going. 

Charlotte:

Well, at least, you know, I think for us, probably with a lot of small business owners, you know, our son works for us and so we, we also feel the weight of that responsibility that if we fail, you know, that puts him in a hard place. It puts his family in a hard place. But I, you know, one thing that keeps us going though is those hard times are when we really hunker down and like, okay, wait a minute. You know, we still, like the Lord, let us do this. So there has to be, there has to be provision in this somewhere. And it’s those times where, gosh, just the dreams start happening. You know, just the vision sort of starts welling up within you and all at once, you have a hope, you know, that just keeps you moving forward. There’s just a hope in front of you about, you know, this, this really is going to happen. We don’t know how always we just have a confidence and a hope within us that will do have a purpose and a part in this healing and restoration of our state,

Jeremy:

It takes many people. Right? And you know, you’ve been able to meet some of the other people out there doing amazing things. You know, my first guest was Debbie Davis, you know, Debbie is an amazing and fun human being and you know, so you’re playing a role in this greater picture. So you know, stay encouraged and keep doing what you’re doing. The cool thing is you’re not having to do this alone. There’s others.

So, you know, life is about, it’s about learning. It’s about learning key lessons and try not to touch that hot stove for a second time trying to learn from those mistakes and not keep doing them. As you look back on life, is there any advice that you’d give to your younger self? As you, as you reflect? Would we need a whole separate show for that? Maybe even, let’s change, let’s change it up a little bit. You’re two years into your business. What would you say to Team Webb two years ago that you know now maybe some advice or words of wisdom you would give?

Charlotte:

I think like we talked about a minute ago, for us it really is about relationships. That that’s primary and everything we do though relationship with customers, our relationship, even with our children, you know, relationships are primary. And so focusing on that, focusing on staying healthy, you know, staying connected because it’s really easy when things get hard. So want to pull away or hide or isolate and, well I think that probably would be an encouragement. Like we’re just going to stick together and we have this thing. Sometimes when it gets hard, he’ll look at me and he’ll say, I will, if you will.

Jeremy:

Love it. It’s nice to have a team. Right? You know, so often as you go out and try to conquer something you know, again, the world of entrepreneurship can be very, very isolating and lonely. And especially when you’re trying to take on a social cause as you are, you know, talking about working with people who have struggled with addictions and those who have, have you know, been incarcerated and such. Why should people care about this work that you’re trying to do and you know, the people that you’re trying to serve? Why does it matter? Talk about that for a minute. 

Kenny:

People matter. No one’s above anyone else. We’re all, we’re all equal here. Some of us make choices that aren’t the best and just because of those choices doesn’t make you any less than someone else or someone any better than than you are. You know, roles that have easily have been reversed. And if I were the one that was in this situation and needed help and needed training and a hand up, I want to say a handout, a hand up, how would I want to be treated in the roles were reversed and that’s my whole railroad career. That’s how I operated was how would I want to be treated if the roles were reversed? If you go through life looking at that, not putting yourself above anyone else.

Charlotte:

Yeah. I think Andy Stanley, in one of his books I read, he said you know, to everyone, you either are a mass, you were a mass or you’re one dumb decision away from being a mass. So like I said, for us it’s personal, you know, but for the grace of God, and there are so many times that we could have ended up in very similar or worse situations because of bad decisions that we may see on that was in our lives. And so we really do see every person, like they’re made in the image of God. They are a value. They’re important. They, you know, they’re worthy of love, they’re worthy of respect and honor. And so I think that kind of drives us.

Jeremy:

Good. I think that’s great. So, you know, we’ve got people of all different types listening to this podcast from various backgrounds, not quite sure exactly where they might be located, they could be here within Appalachia or not. But what sort of words of encouragement or advice would you want to give to people that might be listening who you know, perhaps they have something tugging at them saying you need to go do this and you know, like them can either there one day seems to keep getting pushed off or you know, maybe they have started something and they’re struggling and it’s not quite going so well and they’re scared and then feeling helpless in any sort of words of encouragement or words of wisdom you might offer to other Heroes of Change out there that are trying to do something?

Kenny:

Don’t be afraid to ask questions. Don’t just assume that because you don’t know that somebody else is going to look at you and say, oh, what a stupid question. You know, the only stupid questions, you already know the answer to and you’re just hoping somebody you want to give me more sunshine. So I ask questions. I mean, I’m not, you know, I’ve been doing it. Like I said, I started home improvement stuff in 1985 and I asked a question today as a matter of fact. So you know, it’s every day I’m doing this. How do you do it when you do it? You know, it’s always a learning curve. If you have something that you excel in, don’t discourage people from calling you and asking advice, you be the one that people can call and ask, their day has gone south. And they’re needing help and advice. They’ve made that bad choice. They’ve cut that board two inches too short. And how do I get out of this now? You know, be there to offer encouragement to make yourself available and just pay it forward. You know, we were all there at one time. Nobody walks into entrepreneurship knowing everything going to happen and having an answer for everything. It pops up. It’s a learning curve. And the hard lessons are the ones that stick with you and the ones that you can help others to avoid. You might make or learn a hard lesson doing one thing. And I learned something, another thing, learn a hard lesson, and then we collaborate. Neither one of us would want to repeat that. 

Charlotte:

Yeah. And I think going back to our friend, Debbie Davis, I remember when we were making some decisions about our lives, I, you know, I was like, well, you just pray. We just need confirmation. And she sends back that verse from Esther, if I perish, Iparish. And it just solidified something in our heart. It’s like, you know, we’ve got one life to live. At the worst, you know what can happen where we want to do the right thing. We’re trying to go the right direction. You know, we’ve lost a lot of money before for a lot less so. So it’s kinda like, you know, what’s the worst that can happen? You know, we’ll never know unless we try, unless we move forward.

Kenny:

If you try and fail, at least you can sit back and say, you know, I did try, you know, how would you like be there in your death bed and you’re saying, I wonder what would have happened if I started that business? And yeah, I wish. David Cassidy, when he passed away, his dying words were so much wasted time. And you know, I don’t want to waste time. I’ve wasted too much time at this point in my life. Now I’m willing to step out there and to take the chance to do what I think is right. I may fall flat on my face, but I’m going to step back there and I’m going to try.

Jeremy:

Yeah. One of my favorite quotes is something like this, and I apologize if I butcher it, but whatever you can do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. So I think what I’m hearing you say is get up and go do it. Go forward and be the change. So, you know, if somebody wants to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing with CPR, how can they do that?

Kenny:

Well, we do have a, a website, charlestonpropertyrestoration.com  Facebook page, same thing.

Charlotte:

All of our contact information is on the Facebook page. 

Jeremy:

Awesome.

Kenny:

Message, you know, we get messages, Instant Messenger on Facebook, text me, call me, you know, if I’m up on a ladder with one hand and a paint bucket and I don’t know, I may not answer the phone, right then, but, you know, leave a message and I’ll get back to you.

Jeremy:

Good. Well I’d encourage those that are within the local market especially to, you know, to reach out and if you have a need, if you have a question you know, these are good human beings. I’ve had the fortune to get to know them over some time now. So again, if you’re listening, if you’re in the Charleston-Huntington Metro area especially and you have any, be sure to reach out. So that’s all for this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. We hope that you’ve been inspired by something that you’ve heard today because together, we are the change. Tune in next time as we dig into the story of another hero and learn about what they do, how they do it, and most importantly, why they do what they do. Take care, stay encouraged and we’ll look forward to seeing you next time on the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. Take care.

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A Sit-Down with Fish Stark of Peace First

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As Part of the Heroes of Change Podcast

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Jeremy Turner, Founder & Managing Director at EPIC Mission:

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. This is Jeremy Turner, Founder and Managing Director of EPIC Mission and I’ll be your host here on the podcast. We are highlighting the trials, victories, and applied wisdom of our community change agents, unsung heroes, and those who empower them to be the change across Appalachia and beyond. We seek to inspire and equip everyday heroes just like you to take on our greatest challenges because together, we are the change and today it’s awesome. I get to catch up with an old friend. The one, the only, Fish Stark. We’re going to welcome him to the show, but first before we get to Fish, I want to read a little bit about him. So Fish Stark’s mission is to empower young people to build a kinder, fair world. Fish is the Director of Program Management at Peace First where he and his team lead the delivery of programs providing training and funding to thousands of youth activists across over 140 countries. Prior to joining Peach First, Fish trained to be a classroom teacher and founded BELONG, a nationally recognized program for student-led bullying prevention. He graduated from Yale University where he received a Dean’s Prize for his work to bridge divides between the university and New Haven, Connecticut. He serves on the board of the International Bullying Prevention Foundation. And again, it’s my pleasure to welcome Fish to the show. So, hello there.

Fish Stark, Director of Program Management at Peace First:

Thanks, Jeremy. It’s awesome to be here. Appreciate you having me.

Jeremy:

Absolutely. So everyone’s got a bio. Everyone’s got a nicely prepared paragraph or two about themselves, but let’s go past that. So let’s dig beyond the bio. Who are you? What are you about? What should people know about you beyond the prepared statement?

Fish

I often tell people that I’m an educator by training and organizer by nature and a social entrepreneur by accident. I grew up in a family where the one constant was a call to service and that tempered that sense of duty with a lot of love and a lot of laughter. I experienced a lot of things as a young person that drives me right now. A feeling of isolation, a feeling of being an outsider, and that gave me a call to help other young people feel that they belong in all the communities, that they’re a part of and feel that they can make a difference and become powerful. I’m chiefly concerned with an education system that cares a lot more about making kids great and making them good.

I think we live in a world right now that’s marked by deep injustice and that’s lost a sense of collaborative community. I think the thing that, the best thing that we can do when we look across all the injustices affecting the world from global poverty to climate change, to gender and racial injustice, it’s to build a generation of young people who think and act differently, who put community first, who lead with and care and generosity and who are ready not just to do the right thing, but to mobilize and lead others to do the right thing. So I trained to be a teacher but then decided to become a social entrepreneur focused on helping build a generation of young people in the U.S. and abroad, taking action to make their community stronger and better. You know, as Margaret Atwood said, “It’s only a small group of engaged citizens that can change the world.” And so the question that drives my work is “How do we bring that into practice?”

Jeremy:

I love it. There’s so much that you just said and you know, we’ve got a limited amount of time today. If I keep you too long, they call it kidnapping. So we won’t do that. Let’s see if we can peel that back a little bit. And you know, one of the places I’d like to start with folks, or at least make sure we get to is, you know, how did, where you grew up and who you grow up with, how did that shape and inspire you to be who you are now and focus on the things that matter to you now? Can you talk about that a little bit?

Fish:

Absolutely. So when I think about my early life and how it shaped who I am and what I do and what drives me, there are two forces that work together to build that. The first of the people that I had to look up to as heroes, I was raised by two parents who could have done anything and they chose to make a difference for people. My dad made an incredible career in business, gave it up to go into politics, and fight for healthcare, for working people. So because of his work, we have programs like Cobra that allow people to keep their health insurance when they are laid off from their job. The laws like EMTALA that allow people to be seen for emergency care, no matter how much money they have; my mother was a child policy advocate who helped create Early Head Start. So both of them together dedicated their lives, their careers, and their full selves to the people in communities around them. And thinking about not just how can we help people, but how can we make systems fair so that everyone gets the care, the support that is their birthright? And so I grew up in a whole where the expectations on me were not that I make a certain grade in algebra or that I make varsity football, but that I decide how I want to contribute to helping people and making the world a better place. And then whatever decision I made that I pursued that with discipline and intensity. And so that was something that drove me from an early age to be thinking about my career. Not in terms of what I can get, but in terms of how can I help?

That’s the question I’m trying to answer on my work. And then on the other side of it, I spent a lot of my elementary and middle school years feeling out of place and being pretty relentlessly I a charmed life in a lot of ways. You know, I was a white upper-middle-class kid growing up in America. And so I had a lot of privileges. But ultimately at school I faced a lot of gender-based bullying. I didn’t act the way I was supposed to act. And you know, in first grade if you read girls’ books and you wear girl glasses and you have a girl’s name, which is what I was told, you’re on the receiving end of your fair share of beatings. So it was that that inspired me to change my name. My name isn’t really Fish. So I changed my name from Courtney to Fish because I thought Fish was a hipper, more exciting name that would get me out of a little bit of trouble. But ultimately, I spent a lot of the early years of my life feeling isolated feeling made unwelcome. And really in those moments, it made me feel really angry. So I spent a lot of time as an adolescent feeling frustrated by a system and a culture that I felt like had let me down, but also let down a lot of my peers. And I started thinking as I moved into becoming an adult, “What are the things that I can do to make sure that everyone has access to that feeling of belonging, to make sure that everyone has access to that feeling of feeling valued and loved and supported and how do we build systems that treat people as valuable?” So that’s a little bit about what drives my work.

Jeremy:

I appreciate your sharing that and I can’t imagine that anyone listening to this couldn’t hear a little bit of themselves in that statement because you know, there are many times when I felt completely out of place and terribly uncomfortable and have been you know, on the receiving end of bullying as well. And you know, how many of us have not faced some sort of adversity or have had to face failure of some sort in our lives? And, you know, within the world of entrepreneurship, we so often talk about, you know, taking the things that have deeply impacted us that have truly resonated with us in some fashion and using those as an impetus for change, you know, recognizing the need for a solution in a particular area and then taking our own experiences and our passions and you know, pouring those into creating a set solution. So you know, I hope that listeners catch that piece and I’m sure that they will. So I appreciate you sharing that. So, you know, Peace First, maybe not everyone listening is familiar with the organization, so I want you to, if you would, to take a few minutes and talk about the organization, where it came from and some of the work that you’re doing and, and how you through that organization seek to change the world in a way.

Fish:

Absolutely. Yeah. So I work for a nonprofit called Peace First, and we believe that the best thing that we can do to change the world is empower young people to lead social change in their communities. When you look at the past 250 years of movement from the Indian Independence Movement to the Civil Rights Movement or the Gay Rights Movement here in the U.S., every single movement that has successfully changed our world for the better that has moved social progress forward has been either led by or powered by young people, youth activists at the Woolworth lunch counters or striking from their universities or even today leading movements against climate change and gun violence. They have been the power behind the social change that we hope to see. And so our feeling at Peace First is that the more young people we can get off the sidelines and into the work of making change in their communities and collaborating with others and using their compassion, we can do two things. The first is we can accelerate the pace of change through youth-led social action. The second is that we can build a generation of people who think in a community-minded way and who lead with this question of “How can I act with compassion and courage towards others? That’s why I need this Peace First, right?” It’s not about peace someday or peace when you get around to it. It’s about the idea that we need to build a collective consciousness about this generation of young people. Do we need to put something first that’s more than self-interest? So the founding story of Peace First is it was founded by a group of students at Harvard in the 1990s, including my boss, our CEO, Eric Dawson, his college freshman year roommate, John King, who eventually became President Obama’s Secretary of Education, and a crew of other students and they were going to college at Harvard in the 90s when the City of Boston was facing this alarming spike in youth gun violence. More young people were dying because of gun murders in Boston than anywhere else in the country. And the response by adults at that time was either treat young people as victims who needed to be protected as perpetrators who needed to get locked up. This led to mostly black and brown kids being in jail for crimes they didn’t commit or low-level drug crimes. Or, talking to them as if they were the future. You know, there were a lot of assemblies about realizing your potential, and Eric and John and others just thought that that was pretty screwed up. That, you know, if we wanted to solve the problem with gun violence in Boston, we needed to treat young people not as victims or as perpetrators or as the future, but rather as the solution. And then actually youth gun violence in Boston was going to be solved by young people changing the culture, not by edicts from adults. So they built a school program that taught young people how to be peacemakers, how to stop fights from escalating when they see them, how to build a culture of understanding and compassion in their schools and communities. They won an Echoing Green grant to help grow that program to schools in New York and Chicago and Fairbanks. We did that work for 20 years. We were a multimillion-dollar nonprofit working in schools and communities. And then eventually, a few years ago, our founder made the courageous decision to shut it all down. All of our school-based work and move to an online system where every young person in the world, regardless of whether Peace First was available in their school could access training and support and funding to do social change work on their own. And so we created the world’s largest global community of young people who want to change the world. And we’re trying to solve the access gap that keeps young people who care about making a change from being able to take action. So we’re putting social capital mentors tools, training, and financial capital, mini-grants, $250 right at the fingertips of young people, including some of the most marginalized young people in areas of the global South that don’t have access to this kind of programming. A little over three years, we’ve mobilized 15,000 young people to join our community. We’ve given out hundreds of mini-grants, we’ve helped project scale globally. And we look forward to the next 28 years of helping young people change the world from the bottom up.

Jeremy:

Love it. And I love how clear it is that the problem that you’re solving right? So often in organizations you know, the, you ask them what problem you’re solving in some huge monumental thing or it’s 40 or 50 different problems they’re trying to solve. You very specifically noted the access. There’s not a lack of young people who want to change the world. They just don’t always have access to, you know, the social and financial capital in order to do so. So I think that’s super cool. And you know, hopefully that’s an encouragement that listeners can hear is, you know, get super focused on what it is that you’re trying to do. Because when you try to do everything, you really do nothing. When you focus on everyone, you focus on no one. And you got to get quite focused on everything. So, you know, you’ve talked a lot about young people and you know, the need to develop young people and to support them in their efforts to go change the world because as you said, all these significant movements are begun and, or led by youth. So as a young adult you know, you’ve been through a number of learnings in your life, in reflection. Thinking back to your younger self, what kind of advice would today Fish, give younger Fish?

Fish:

What kind of advice would I give myself as a young person? That’s a great question. I should know the answer to this a little better because I spend most of my day giving young people advice working as a coach and a mentor. I would say the most important thing that you can do is build teams of people you trust and listen to them. I would say believe in your own value and goodness, but have some skepticism about your own capability. Right? So young people often do the opposite. They get a little bit ahead of their skis in what they think they can accomplish, but they doubt their core. And so I would tell myself, I tell other young people to believe that their ideas and their passions and their motivations are right. And then have some humility about where you need to learn skills. And I would say don’t waste your time with things that don’t feel right to you, that you need to, that you feel like you might need to do or that people expect of you. Think about where your values and your heart, your passions are telling you to go and follow behind those. And you will only be treated as well as you treat other people.

Jeremy:

The golden rule, ‘do unto others.’ You know, what I heard in there was, I heard a lot. I hear when you speak, I hear a lot of things and I appreciate the depth at which you consider and share out your thoughts and ideas. Thank you for that. You know, I hear encouragement for young people to go forward and do things. And as we know, not everything you do turns out exactly as you planned. Right? Very rarely does it because you know, life happens along the way. So, you know, in our culture, I think we do a really terrible job of preparing young people for failure.

Fish:

Yeah.

Jeremy: 

We teach that failure’s not an option and win at all costs and it creates these terrible zero-sum games where there are only winners if there are losers rather than seeking opportunities for us all to move forward together. So if you would talk a little bit about failure in your life, anything, any failures that you’ve experienced or any regrets that you’ve had in life or business and maybe how those have shaped you or how you would hope that you know, those can shape others.

Fish:

I’d love to talk about a failure. And it’s not a regret, it is something that profoundly shaped me. And that ultimately I would do again if I ever had to. But was that absolutely a mistake? We have failures, so I think you’re right. We don’t talk about failure enough. We don’t, and when we do, we talk about it as a transaction, right? We talk about failure as a learning experience. Failure is something you have to do to get to being able to be successful. And to give what that, what that commodification of failure does is it doesn’t teach them, people, the important message that sometimes failure is something that just happens, right? And that’s especially problematic because failure is most likely to happen to be young people or the people with the fewest resources, right? With the least connections or access or training. And so we really, one of the things that we’re trying to fight against in the youth leadership, youth activist space is this commodification of success and failure. This idea that young people need to show up a certain way or do their work a certain way or that something is not adequate with them. So let’s talk about my story. I went to college at Yale University which is an Ivy League college in the middle of New Haven, Connecticut, which is an amazing city that faces some really severe economic hardship. And a big part of that hardship is because about half of the taxable property in New Haven is owned by nonprofits, including Yale University, which has a nearly $40 billion endowment, billions of dollars worth of property that they don’t pay a single cent of property tax. So you’ve got this, you know, you’ve got this very, very wealthy, wealthy university, and then you’ve got this city that, well, thriving in many ways also has residents that are struggling. You know, there’s not enough availability of good jobs. There are not enough nurses to serve every school. And so you, you’ve got this very much, this tale of two cities. And when I went to New Haven, I spent a lot of time working in the local community as a teacher. I spent my summers there and I taught you know, classes to kids in New Haven public schools, high school, social studies, middle school English just because I like being out and involved with whatever community I’m in, but I was noticing that that at the university, you know, the student culture was to look at New Haven as a place that was either irrelevant to them or a place that was dangerous, right? A lot of that is fueled by assumptions that the largely white, wealthy student body had about these largely low income of color, New Haven. And the idea I had was first that we needed to solve this problem about getting students out into the community and really having a respect and a feeling of citizenship for the city they were a part of. But second, that the only way to solve the problem of the university as the wealthiest entity of the city not making its fair share of contributions to the City of New Haven was to change the way the students thought about their responsibility to the city. Because Yale, for all its virtues is a pretty slow-moving institution. But the one thing it’s responsive to is the pressure from its stakeholders. So anyway I was thinking about what do, and I was talking with a good friend of mine and he and I had worked together on some, on a progressive campaign for the mayor in New Haven, a man who was running on a reform clean money platform. And ultimately a couple of the people from that campaign came to the two of us and they asked us if we would work together and have me run as a candidate for city council representing a district that was eight, about 80% Yale students. And so I listened to the, those folks in the community that I trusted. And the problem was that there was an incumbent in the seat, someone who used to be a student and graduated some years ago and who was not really living in the city anymore but was, you know, staying around and was voting the way the powers that be in the city wanted. So they would prefer to keep her around even though she wasn’t doing the work of engaging students in the city. So I ran for city council at the age of 19 which is not an easy thing to do, although I had a lot of help and support doing it from friends, from a great team. And people didn’t like that. I got calls on my cell phone from statewide elected officials in Connecticut who had I’m sure far better and more important things to do than harass a 19-year-old college student telling me that I better drop out of the race or offering me things if I quit. And you know, I had people cornering me and telling you they were going to make my life miserable if I didn’t drop out. I mean, it was ridiculous for a city council seat representing 6,000 people, but you know, we worked, we did the work the way we wanted to do the work. We built a platform for youth issues that we designed with young people from high schools all around New Haven. We built a team of volunteers that knocked on the doors of every single person in that community and talked to them about what their issues were and had conversations about how they could serve New Haven. And ultimately we built a pretty robust platform saying this is what the university needs to do for the City of New Haven. This is how we change the relationship between students in the city. No, we lost that election. They spent a lot of money. They put a lot of paid organizers in there. They brought in, you know, statewide politicians to stand up. The polls would be incumbent. We lost by about 150 votes. We got a lot of support from the community. Ultimately it wasn’t enough. So in a sense, we failed. But what happened after that campaign was because the conversations we had started, the people we had mobilized, the culture on campus started to change. Students started going out and volunteering in the community more. That student government put a position on their executive board for collaboration with the city, which is something that we have pushed for the university, expanded programs for students to connect with the city, and put more money into those programs, which is something that we have pushed for. And eventually, we’re about five years out from that campaign. You know, we saw as a result, these actions that we pushed for that got students more connected with the city, we have now started to see what we had hoped for in terms of students pushing the university to change the way it contributes to the city. So in the wake of Coronavirus, the university student body president just endorsed for the first time a measure to encourage the university to increase its voluntary contribution to New Haven in collaboration with the new mayor of New Haven just now occurred who was the one who had told me to run for city council in the first place. So all the, you know, the point of all this, the point of this long story about failure is, failure is not just about what you learn. Ultimately, the act of standing up and doing something that you believe is right or that you think is going to make a positive difference in the community, it is something that in itself is a radical act that can inspire and unleash some of the change.

Jeremy:

That’s great. You know, there’s such ritual lessons in that. It’s, you know, again, I think that as a culture we focus so much on winning is the only positive outcome, right? And you know, you and I both know that that’s not the case. And your story there is a great representation of that. And that really leads me into my next question. And here it is. When you, you know, the name of this podcast is the Heroes of Change. The tagline for my company is Guiding Heroes or Change. When you hear that phrase, Hero of Change, what does that mean to you? And then why is it so important for everyday heroes to stand up and move forward to be the change that we wish to see in the world? 

Fish:

To me, a hero is someone who assumes risk for the greater good. I think some of the strongest heroes, even some of the ones in the comics do their work in the shadows, right? We think about Batman. I don’t think a hero necessarily, it has to be a leader. I think a lot of good heroes are good leaders and vice versa, but I think those things are different. I think they often get complaint, which is a real mistake. I think a hero is someone who assumes risk to themselves to be clear in that we think about that as physical risks that the first responders assume, but it could be, you know, the financial risk that social entrepreneurs assume or that you know the emotional someone assumes when they put themselves out in our community and someone who’s assuming that risk for the greater good. So to pursue a set of ideas or goals or hopes beyond themselves for the benefit of the community around them, to me that’s what a hero is. And a Hero of Change is someone who does that. In order to specifically target the status quo and move the way our communities are, systems work to a way that’s closer to those ideas. So I think a firefighter is not a hero, but a firefighter is necessarily a Hero of Change, right? Because we know how to fight fire. We’re going to go in and we’re going to fight the fire or to put the fire out. That’s good. Not every hero has to be a Hero of Change. But to me, a Hero of Change is someone who figures out a better way to put out the fire or somebody figures out that the fire department is actually providing faster service to the white neighborhoods closest to the fire station. And neighborhoods with communities of color farther away from the fire station aren’t getting the same responsiveness and figures out a way to change that. So that’s what a Hero of Change is to me, someone who assumes risk for the greater good, challenging the status quo, and changing the way the system works.

Jeremy:

Love it. And so why is it so important for everyday people, you know, people like you and I and people that are listening to say, “You know, enough is enough with the status quo. I’m going to stand up and I’m going to do something. I’m going to purposely target the status quo.” Why is it so important for everyday people to become these Heroes of Change?

Fish:

Because that’s the only way change has ever been made. You can’t map – there’s no way to put like social movements aren’t centrally planned like cities are. Right? When you look at, again, whether it’s a movement that liberated a country from colonialism, on a national scale, like the Indian Independence movement or the kind of movement that builds a new park or changes the city policy. Anytime that we see any sort of social change or meaningful change happen, it’s because people who didn’t necessarily always have power or didn’t necessarily weren’t always identified leaders came together and said, “We’re all going to take some sort of action to make a difference.” And you know, those sorts of changes, they always happen in community and they always happen with risk involved. Soo they’re not easy. But ultimately, ultimately, when people step forward to do those things, not only are they able to accomplish a lot, often a lot more than they thought possible, but they also feel, I think the most incredible feeling, the incredible reward in the world of doing purposeful work that changes lives with the community of allies and friends. And so that’s the feeling and that’s the hope. And that’s the ambition that my work is all about; teaching the young people anyone from any generation can be a change maker. But I’m always inspired by the Gandhi quote that says, “If we’re to lead to real peace in the world, we have to begin with the children.” And so my work, whether it’s about building bullying prevention programs or when I worked as a preschool teacher, my work now with Peace First is thinking about “How do we specifically ask, are the youngest among us not only to take this kind of action?” but to build it as a lifelong habit of mine.

Jeremy:

That’s great. You know, I think we do have to start with our young people. You know, we can’t leave out the older generations either, but you know, we definitely have to you know, help support our young people better than we have in the past. And your organization’s doing a terrific job and you are doing a terrific job in doing that. I’ve got two questions for you as we move towards wrapping up. And my hope is that perhaps we can reconvene another conversation on another day and dig into some more topics. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. 

Fish:

Amazing. I would be glad to. 

Jeremy:

Awesome. I’ll hold you to that. So question number one of two is my hope is that there are people listening to this and something that you’ve said has really hit them hard in the most positive of ways. You know, maybe they are on a journey and you know, they’re feeling a little bit of strife, a little struggle in their journey to go be the change or you know, maybe someone that desire to go be the change has now been activated after hearing you know, some of what you’ve shared today. So there are Heroes of Change that are out there that are listening to this. What advice would you give them as you were to meet them on their journey?

Fish:

First thing I’d say is call me. My number is (304) 382-8448. My email Fstark@peacefirst.org. I think the best thing that people can do on their journeys is not be afraid to ask questions and ask for advice. That I think the best thing that we can do as leaders is be available. Be a witness to people who want to make change and be an ally to people who are just getting started. The other thing that I would say is there’s only so much planning you can do. I know a lot of people who spend their days really getting wrapped up in thinking about what they’re going to do to make a change, whether, again, it’s to start a business or to speak out against something or take some sort of social action. The people I know who have the most success in it are the folks who are thoughtful about how they plan, but ultimately there’s a point at which they stop and they go and they just do something.

The third thing I’d say is build a team. Even if you’re doing most of the work yourself and you’re just bouncing ideas off of people who trust you, again, whether it’s a business or a campaign or a movement you’re only as good as the brain trust that you have around you. And ultimately nothing worth lasting was ever built by lone vocals. So those are the things that I’ve not only learned in my own journey but in coaching thousands of young activists and social entrepreneurs. And I think the rest of it, you know, it depends on the person, what they want to sell.

Jeremy:

And I do hope that someone reaches out to you. I hope that many someones reach out to you because I know that offer is genuine and you know, I appreciate that. So the final question for you is if people want to learn more about you and the work that you’re doing with Peace First, how can they do that? You gave your phone number and email address already, you can give it again if you like, but then, you know, perhaps your website, social media handle.

Fish:

Yeah. So if folks are interested in Peace First, whether you’re a young person, we serve young people 13 to 25, who wants to start a project in your community and make a difference, or whether you’re an older person or an ally who wants to support the work by donating or by mentoring, you can visit peacefirst.org. That’s P E A C E F I R S T dor org. And if you want to get in touch with me or follow along with my work, you can find me on Facebook. The only Fish dark on Facebook or you can find me on Twitter @fishstark. And Jeremy, I look forward to connecting with some of your listeners.

Jeremy:

Absolutely. I appreciate it. And we’ll share your contact information on the website when this episode goes live as well. So, Fish, I really appreciate you and I’m going to hold you to the next conversation piece and I look forward to connecting with you offline some time.

Fish:

Well, that’s good. We’ll do it another time. Maybe I’ll bring some more young people with me.

Jeremy:

Okay. That’d be fantastic. I appreciate that. Well, everybody that’s all for this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. We hope that you have been inspired by something that you heard today because together, we are the change. Tune in next time as we dig into the story of another hero and learn what they do, how they do it, and most importantly, why they do what they do. In the meantime, take care, stay encouraged, and we’ll look forward to seeing you next time on the Heroes of Change podcast. Thanks so much.

 

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A Sit-Down with Janet Schultz of Blue-J Cleaning Solutions

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As Part of the Heroes of Change Podcast

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Jeremy Turner, Founder & Managing Director of EPIC Mission:

Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. This is Jeremy Turner, Founder and Managing Director of EPIC Mission and I’ll be your host here on the podcast. We are highlighting the trials, victories, applied wisdom of our community, change agents, unsung heroes, and those who empower them to be the change across Appalachia and beyond. We seek to inspire and equip everyday heroes just like you to take on our greatest challenges because together, we are the change. On this episode, it’s a real pleasure for me to welcome someone I haven’t talked to for a little while. It’s my friend, Janet Schultz from Blue-J Cleaning Solutions. Before we get to Janet, I just want to read a quick paragraph about her. So Janet Schultz, former special education teacher turned entrepreneur, began Blue-J Cleaning Solutions in November of 2012. The first year the biggest struggle and frustration was finding employees who would clean to a process where dependable, committed, detail-oriented, and routine-driven.

Then the epiphany came, individuals on the autism spectrum have had those attributes coupled with a strong work ethic. Hiring Eric in 2013 being Blue-J’s first employee on the spectrum marked the beginning of the solution to the problem of finding a reliable employee base. After some investigation into this idea, it was found that the high unemployment rate of those on the spectrum was and still is the current platform and focus of Autism Speaks and other said groups. It all began to come together and make sense. Blue-J joined the ranks as a social business. The Blue-J idea is a win-win for all involved. So I obviously know a little bit about your business or knew a little bit about it. We haven’t talked in a while, but I met you shortly after your original formation. But let’s take a minute. Let’s get past this, the prepared bio for just a minute, and please share with me and our listeners a little bit more about you, your story personally, and the Blue-J story, the work that you’re doing. So take a moment and share with us and welcome, by the way.

Janet Schultz, Founder of Blue-J Cleaning Solutions:

Thank you, Jeremy. It’s good to see you. I’ve always had an entrepreneur spirit from way back. And it wasn’t until my second marriage that that was actually tapped into and realized in that particular situation. I was partners with my husband in a construction company and I was kind of given certain responsibilities and realized that I was in my zone. With that, I love marketing, sales, and having my own business. It just all kind of, I grew, I really was able to recognize some skills within myself that I did not even know I had. And so I was able to act those out and just explore those, you know, for time being, and then you know as sometimes life comes at us in unexpected ways a forced live situation came my way where I had to make a life change, an unexpected one and knew that having been in the classroom, that was not something that I excelled in, but having my own business and being in that world and now that I knew what some of my skill sets were, I knew that I was destined to have my own business.

So the question here, what business would that be? What was I good at? Having been a single parent prior to my second marriage for a number of years and taught school, I also cleaned houses and I’ve always cleaned, played cleaning when I was growing up. Not that I enjoy cleaning because I don’t. You do not have to own your own business and enjoy doing the actual task, hands-on. You can but you can as long as you know how and you’re good at it, entrepreneurs really don’t need to be working in their business so much as they work on it. But in the beginning, you have to do that, but you have to be knowing all the time that you need to grow out of that. So, but I was good at cleaning and that’s what I knew. So that was just kind of a natural thing for me to go into, starting out. You know, doing most of the work myself, I started with nothing and I do not advise anyone to start a business with nothing. You have to start with capital, with cash flow going into a business because that will help you to survive the growing years. But by God’s grace, I’ve made it eight years and it’s just been a learning – Blue-J has done more to change me than it has for anyone that I employ. And so it’s just been a tremendous journey for me. I’m still, I’m still growing, I’m still moving in the direction of which from day one has always been to help other people do what I’ve done and start a Blue-J in their community employing people that are on the spectrum. But I do not solely employ people on the spectrum because that came later actually, you know, like I said earlier, cleaning and doing most of the work myself, cleaning houses. But I knew that that wasn’t my forte. I really wanted to clean commercially and small offices was what my niche would be. I’m not a Janet King. I’m not someone who would compete in that arena. Every business is fashioned itself and has it’s culture, because every business has its culture, its own personality and it’s always fashioned after the owner. So me, Janet, my personality is I get overwhelmed in big environments. I prefer to go to a True Value Hardware store rather than a Lowe’s because it’s more manageable. Containable therefore that’s why I decided a small office, you know, hey that’s a better fit for me. I can manage that. Not knowing two years down the road after, you know, my employee frustration began, where are these people, you know, that would clean to a process because I was developing a process, you clean this way and we become consistent when we do that. And that was one of the main problems I heard consistently from my clients, businesses who were seeking a new cleaning company to come in because there was no consistency and that process offers that, but who would follow it? You know, it’s good to have on paper, but it’s no good if no one’s going to follow it if they come with an agenda. Well, I know already how to clean. So, so I was facing that and being, you know, being thrust into the situation in which I had to survive. I had a lot going on which I would not advise, you know, and that would be something that I would say to people who are starting a small business, don’t, you know, want to start something during a trauma situation, you need to get stabilized emotionally and mentally before you venture off into something as serious as starting your own business. But because I was was in that environment, that’s where I felt the most comfortable. That’s what, that’s what life was handing me. Right then I did not say, or even think of another option. I was an entrepreneur at heart. I was a risk-taker. Anyway. So there I got and off I went. And that was in God’s plan because you know, that was, it was His idea from day one. I didn’t, and I knew from day one that it would become a franchise marketable in the very beginning of this one. I didn’t have no, I had no idea what that would look like or what that even meant. But that was the theme from day one, two years into it. Jeremy, as my bio says, that’s when it became apparent that hey, I need to look into the autistic in population. Because they would be a great fit for this. And as a special ed teacher, we just got each other. We naturally gravitated to each other. And so I didn’t, again, I didn’t jump into it lightly, haphazardly. I went and talked to professionals in that world and just they were able to validate and confirm my suspicions or my thoughts that yes, indeed, this is a population that would fit that bill of root. They do not get bored with a routine. There are outstanding employees and you can’t put everybody in a box because you know, if they have behavioral issues or they can be some, sometimes socially immature or behaviors may get in the way and they’ve had to be let go. It was, or sometimes it’s a mutual agreement. This, you’re not ready for work yet, you know, and, and I provide a safe environment in which they can explore themselves and, and just kind of learn and grow.

Having said all that, it just became because I hire people that aren’t autistic because in the beginning it takes all of us. So I’m not, we’re not isolating ourselves because that’s not the real world. Society involves all of us and we have to learn how to communicate, get along, understand one another. So it has forced us, all people who aren’t autistic and myself included and the autistic population as well to learn how to be intentional, be in the moment, how to communicate with each other so that we’ll avoid misunderstandings and be misinterpreted. Because that is a big problem I see in, in relationships is that our intentions are misinterpreted. And it’s become, it’s, it’s a challenge at times, but it’s because you believe in what you’re doing, then that’s what gets you through. They’ve been many times I’ve wanted to throw in the towel and just, you know, lack of how am I going to make payroll, you know, how am I going to, I can’t take this anymore. You know, complaints from clients. They’re few and far between, but no one’s perfect. So they do come and some clients are hard to please and you can’t please everyone. And I am on the philosophy that, and there’s a great book out there that I read and I thought, I may say this to people that are interested in starting their own business. You’ve got to go into it with knowledge and you got to decide on what your philosophy is. And, and so I, while I was cleaning houses and just kind of getting this thing off the ground and trying to get my head on straight and, and trying to recover because I was in recovery emotionally, I read a lot of books. I sought out people that I could trust in the entrepreneur world and, and they, I was able to gain and glean from them some valuable insight. And I saw, I read a lot of books, one of which I do not recall the author. But the book is entitled, Clients Come Second and it’s a very short read and it talks about how you’re, you got to take care of your own first. We can take care of your employees and you got their back and they know that, but yet you don’t cover for them, you know, but they’re the ones that are out there in the field. They are an extension of you. They’re an extension of me. They are Janet, you know, in the field they are Blue-J. So you’re only as good as the last employee you have working for you. So you need to take care of them. So that book was, was just fit into my philosophy. And there are countless others. And in the business, in a box model business model that I’ve, the prototype that I’ve developed now that’s marketable for, for people to start their own Blue-J in their own community. It has a list of reading material that I suggest before you, you know, this is part of the package. You got to learn, you got to grow. You have to always be a lifelong learner. Which I don’t advise anyone learning on the fly, you know, what I’ve had to do, but gain from my experience, great gain from my failures and experience and interest, a natural instinct and I think an entrepreneur needs to have a certain amount of natural instinct and the need to have confidence in listening to their gut. But I, I have a passion as well to help other people start their own business because I feel like that’s where my real skill set lies. Former teacher always be a teacher, you know, just in different venues. So I manage my cleaning company, I’m a good manager of people, I believe. And you know, Blue-J at this point in its existence pretty much runs on its own, which is what you want as a owner is you want your business to run without you. Just means I have good people in the field and more than half of those people are autistic and they are the ones that have stayed on and we currently have. And I’ve been, I’ve learned how to interview better and how to know when a person on the spectrum is ready for work. They’re mature enough and they can handle it. And you know, I’ve gotten better. So right now as we speak, things are running very smoothly and it’s a good time now I feel like I’m ready. I’m at the place that I want to focus now on helping other people that want to do the same thing that I’ve done and they can do it. They can certainly do it and I would love the opportunity to help them do it because that’s where my skill set and my passion lies in helping other people succeed. And then consequently, they’re a social enterprise and I’m actually able to act out. The other aspect, of on a spiritual level of what I feel God wants me to do is to be His hands and feet in my community. And so we’re all placed in a community and we see needs and we know what needs its destiny. And I pray Janet that God would, my heart would break, He would break my heart for what breaks His and, and, and even the things that I’ve been through in my past bad, you know, traumatic things during my childhood. Even those God wastes nothing and that those things made me into the person I am so that I can be in a position that I can have a different perspective on things. I see things differently than maybe other people. I see the world through a different pair of eyes and that makes me maybe have more empathy to certain populations and say others and therefore God is using that for His good and that He can work through me because He works through people to accomplish His will and that, you know, I can make an impact in my community which, which is what a social entrepreneurship does. It’s a business for-profit, but it addresses a social need, which is employment of people on the spectrum, which consequently I have to add that if someone that does not have autism but is, has a learning difference, then they are certainly, it’s an open door. You can certainly come and interview and I conduct my interviews by way of job shadow because that is the best way to accomplish whether or not that something for them they want or, and I can see firsthand, you know, how well they follow instructions, can they work independently, you know, that kind of thing. So it was a very informative way to interview those types of persons. And so yes, I’m addressing a social need because the high employment rate affects us all now and they want to be productive. They are an overlooked population when it comes to employment.

So I feel like we have a solution, you know, for that within our business model, but also a social enterprise. Also, reinvest some of the profit back into the community to help support and come alongside other groups that are already doing work, churches, other nonprofit groups that are in the community doing things that I believe that I believe with all my heart that more and more businesses that this is a very key time to be in business because we are part of a bigger movement. I believe that we, it’s now I consider myself part of the church, excuse me in that it should be coming back to that you know that we should be more involved in our community and not looking to programs or other things to help resource the support sometimes and oftentimes we have trained and have conditioned our population that have learning differences, whether it be people on the spectrum, whether it be people with Down Syndrome, we have caused them to be reliant on and, and when they graduate from high school and those programs don’t exist anymore. So I foster independence and it’s amazing to see firsthand how that, what that level of independence and I’m making my own money. I can now pay for my own car. I can take myself to movies, I can buy my own popcorn and gee is it very expensive? You know, these realizations of what it really takes in life because I am doing it on my own. I’m making my own way and that’s a lot of satisfaction to sit back and watch that. Being able to provide that kind of environment and the experiences from family members, how they’re people in the spectrum, you know, their key problem is communication. How their ability to communicate levels go sky high, that they so improved given an environment in which they are expected to achieve and have given room for failure. Then they rise to the occasion. And so it’s all that in a nutshell. I’m doing what I am fashioned to do and this is to me, I’m onto the next and the next leg, you know, or –

Jeremy:

 that next stage of your journey. 

Janet:

Exactly.

Jeremy:

Next chapter, another way to phrase it. 

So, you brought up a lot of great points. I’m going to try and dig into these one at a time, but undoubtedly we’ll find other nuggets to dig into. So, you know, one of the earlier things that you said was at a time in your life when you really didn’t have any other options, when you had to strike out on your own, you did an inventory of self and said, you know, what is it that I’m good at and I’ll start there. That is a crucial lesson for entrepreneurs. Too often I run into people who want to start entrepreneurial ventures and they say, I want to do this thing. Okay, great. Let’s talk about that. You know, have you done this before and you know, let’s talk about your skill-set. Oh no, I haven’t done anything like that before, but I think it’s a great idea, right? So starting with what you have what, you know, physical and emotional and skill-based resources, financial resources that you have currently and then moving forward from there. So I think that’s a terrific lesson. I appreciate you bringing that up.

Janet:

Yeah, your idea has to match. You are your passion. We’re given passions and skill-sets for a reason, God gave us those, you know, to channel to use, we need to do what’s comfortable. That’s my feeling anyway. 

Jeremy:

And even within that, you can be a little bit uncomfortable doing what you’re comfortable doing. Right. Which is part of the whole, as you said, that it’s maintaining that growth mindset, lifelong learner, continuing to grow and personally and professionally develop and push yourself so that you can further push those around you, of course, in the most positive way. Push them to also grow and develop personally, professionally, which is what you’re doing.

Janet:

Well, it hasn’t, it didn’t start out that well. I was learning and managing at the same time and I had some severe relational problems, you know, and I made some terrible mistakes, you know, in how I relate to my employees, but I learned and I was given a tremendous amount of grace and that was just part of, you know, why I would advise anyone, you know, you got to have yourself together. I mean, you know what I’m saying? 

Jeremy:

I absolutely do.

Janet:

But you cannot go into this situation unprepared and you need to have people behind you and support. And the biggest stress, I would not have had such a difficult time emotionally had I had financial support and that caused me, especially as a single woman, tremendous stress, tremendous stress.

Jeremy:

You early on in this, in this adventure, and you know, I remember, you know, I loved your idea and I loved your heart and I still do. I remember the stress that I felt rolling off of you at that time, it was palpable, but you held fast to your vision for what you wanted to achieve and you’re closer. You’re moving in that direction, you know, the whole business in a box concept. I remember our first conversations about that. And to know that that’s, that’s in place now. And you know, I, I love it. I’m really, really thrilled that that’s where the, that’s the state of affairs at present for you, is that you’re continuing to grow the businesses viable. You’re doing it. And not just are you maintaining it, but you’re continuing to evolve it and move it on you know, because businesses that don’t grow and evolve, they stagnate and die.

Janet:

Right. And I couldn’t be, I had to learn this, but I couldn’t be so set. And this is the way it has to be. I had to be open to change, you know, that maybe, you know it needs to be tweaked this way and that way. And so I’ve had to swallow my pride and, you know, really always self-evaluate, you know, always self-evaluate and always treat, look at other people, including my employees and clients, you know, as I’m a servant to them as better than me, you know, so that you want to, you want to present a good model, you know, not just as an employer but a person, you know, because it’s hard for someone to go out in the field and work for you if they don’t first respect you and what you’re all about. So I’ve worked and it’s been painful, very painful emotionally and personally to have experienced some, you know, hard things. But again, I’m, I moved past it and those were the times I wanted to just quit and give up. 

Jeremy:

Why didn’t you quit? 

Janet:

Well, because every time I tried, God would turn me back around. He would give me a new client the next day or something, you know? And so I had to come and so I couldn’t quit. You know, I couldn’t, I couldn’t quit. You know, questioning whether or not this did I hear you wrong, God? You know, is, is this really, maybe I should just go and be a teacher in a classroom. But that would be so against who I was, who my personality is. I would be a burden, a cage, and I couldn’t live. I do not and I said this recently in a group that I do not want a mediocre life. I am not going to settle for the status quo. It is just not in me to do that. And I don’t know what that makes me, but that’s just not me. 

Jeremy:

It makes you a great guest for this podcast, which is called Heroes of Change, right? You’re not willing to settle for mediocre or status quo. So let me ask you, when you know, the name of the podcast Heroes of Change, the tagline for my company is Guiding the Heroes of Change. When you hear that phrase, Hero of Change, what does that mean to you when you think about and how are you living that out every day?

Janet:

Well, first, you know, I think that it’s important to note again that the change had to happen within me first. And so that’s what Blue-J has done and continues to do. We’re, like I said, lifelong learners. We’re always growing. You never think that you’ve arrived, but Heroes of Change. The things that break my heart, I cannot sit oddly by and watch that. I am determined to do something about that, to change that, to not just keep the pattern. I want to change patterns. You know, that destructive patterns that exist in children that exist in families, that exists in individuals. And if we can change those patterns, just one person, one child, one program, you know, we see something wrong, then this don’t be quick to judge or be cynical. But how can I impart some change in that? You know, what can I do? Just a little thing to bring some change to that situation instead of sitting on the sidelines and watching it just continue to happen. And I just want it to be within my power is within my spirit. And I, I’m already doing that. But in just little things, little ways and certainly within my business, you know, change, bringing people’s change about their perspective people that have autism, you know, you have your stereotypes and, but it’s been about that so that our employees, the people in the spectrum that work for Blue-J, Blue-J employees that they not always are by themselves at night and no one else is around working. Sometimes they work among people that are working at the same time in the office and they’ve had to learn how to communicate. And the people that are working there have also learned and been educated about, you know, this person.

Jeremy:

So there’s really a lot of layers with what you’re doing. I mean there’s, there’s the employment layer where, you know, you’re allowing someone an opportunity to either gain for the first time or regain a sense of dignity of you know, self-reliance, independence. You are, there’s a socialization aspect, right, where you’re getting people on the spectrum out and to intermingle with one another and with others who are not on the spectrum and you’re working to destroy stereotypes and of which there are myriad stereotypes by intermingling your workers who are on the spectrum and the employees of whatever said business you’re working with who are light or not on the spectrum so that they can see and be seen in here and be heard by one another, the curtain and discuss and let each discover who the other is.

Janet:

That’s right. And not be afraid because people are afraid of what they don’t understand. Now, there are occasions where some of our Blue-J employees, you know, talk to themselves. They work at extremely sometimes slower pace than others. And that’s the beauty of what Blue-J and what it’s all about. And in the model that explains how that works together so they understand that there’s their job site would be a place better fit for them with no one else’s around because they’re misunderstood. And this has happened, you know, where I’ve had to have no last resort but to take an employee, a Blue-J employee off that job site, not because of their job performance because they are the best at what they do. They’re professionals and put at another job site where it was better suited because you can’t force yourself on other people. You can’t force your ideas or your ideals on other people. People are just resistant to that.

Jeremy:

Well, there’s no saying that people hate to be sold, but they love to buy. And so by trying to cram the idea of a, of a person on the spectrum, doing the cleaning in your office while you’re there may not be palatable to everybody. 

Janet:

That’s right. 

Jeremy:

But perhaps by the, by the experience, by modeling this for them, with them, they can begin to see and make the decision on their own or come to the realization or become enlightened on their own that, oh well this is just like, this is another human being just like me. We have our differences because all humans are a little different from one another, but they’re still a human being with a soul and with goals and such. And you know, now I don’t have to be afraid because I can understand now I’ve seen it in the flesh.

Janet:

Right. And on the other side, it’s also opportunity for us to teach those on the spectrum that are involved with this. And I tell them all the time that you’re not just a representative of Blue-J, you got more responsibility on your shoulders because you’re also representing the people on the spectrum. And so you really have carrying a heavy responsibility because people are watching you and they’re looking to see how you react or respond. And so I, I put a lot of it’s your responsibility to act. There are certain, you know, be conscious, you know, and a lot of times they’re not very self-aware and so that helps them to kind of grow outside of their bubble.

Jeremy:

That lack of self-awareness is pretty prevalent among our entire population. 

Janet:

Yeah. And so I, I try to, I agree. And that’s something you’re right and it’s, we have to all be conscious of, you know, what we’re doing, how it might, might affect other people. It’s not that we’re trying to please others, but we want to be approachable, you know, and not come off as odd or weird because people already have their stereotypes and so, they try to catch themselves, you know, and it’s discipline. It’s discipline for them. Oh yeah, that’s not appropriate. You know, if I’m talking to myself while I’m cleaning, that’s maybe seen by other people scary. You know, that’s just not appropriate. So they’re learning, of course, they don’t know what’s appropriate, but they learn. I mean, my goodness, you know, it’s, there are so many facets where we have a saying that Blue-J is more than a cleaning company. We are a movement, you know, a movement, a change, a movement, a change of perception. 

Jeremy:

Thinking about that movement piece, you know, let’s fast forward decades into the future and you’re looking back on everything. You know, what sort of legacy do you want to leave behind and what is that change that you’re fighting for with this movement?

Janet:

So to back up a little bit about this movement, it has, it’s not just a movement of change within the employment arena for those with disability or, or learning differences. It’s also on a spiritual sense. It was and you probably heard this too, because we were in the same circles, you know, a few years ago that the last greatest prophecy or word that Billy Graham said was that the next great move of God would come in the marketplace. Do you recall him?

Jeremy:

Yeah. And marketplace ministry was then becoming, you know, the next big thing and lots of people were jumping into it. 

Janet:

About that time is when Blue-J was, you know, going. And I really, that resonated with my spirit, you know, that, yeah, I’m part of that, you know, that businesses, the marketplace individuals, you know, more central businesses can do more good and their business of profit can do more good than any nonprofit could because nonprofits are somewhat, from what I’m understanding is, is changed a little bit, hands tied. But with a social enterprise, you know, it’s endless. So I feel like that I’m a part of a spiritual movement as well as a movement to create change in the marketplace for those that are, have learned differences. So particularly those with autism is what I find are a, you know, a great group to look at because they have the skillset and the fact that they don’t get bored.

You see, that is such a, in the cleaning industry, it’s the same thing over and over. And that’s what makes them such a great fit. It’s, they don’t get bored. They actually find comfort in the routine. Is that they do they find comfort in the routine and they get better with time and are they, do I still have to re-train? Yes. You know, it’s like one of my mentors, it happens to be one of my clients, you know, sometimes we clean, you know, clean for him because he’s one of my clients. But you know, I get so frustrated, you know, with, and the people that were on his job particularly were not on the spectrum and he would have complaints, you know, and he’s rightly said because he, he is one that strives for excellence, you know, and everything that you do, you need to strive for excellence, not perfection, but excellence, you know?

And so I got, you know, I just get, was really getting frustrated with it. You know, why can’t, why can’t there be no complaints, you know? And he said, doesn’t mean, and he took that as a learning opportunity for me and told me that it doesn’t mean you have to go and fire them. You just have to retrain and refocus. And so that is something that I’ve learned to apply. And I remember that when he said, what now? Sometimes you have to, okay, but you have to learn, know the difference. And some, some now in the end got to go and retrain and refocus. Great employees would not give them up for anything. But again, you have to be a good manager. You have to be a good you know, in person, encourager, you know, let them know when they’re doing great. 

Jeremy:

Got to be a good leader. 

Janet:

That’s right. Thank you. Thank you. Right, right. Exactly. And what does that look like? You know, that’s what I’m asking. You mean how would you define being a great leader?

Jeremy:

Leadership has millions of definitions and there’s tons of books written about it, but I think, you know, leadership in its essence is a very selfless act where you take your own personal, eat your own ego out of the space and you take a greater look at the larger responsibility. And you look at the people around you that you’re leading and you give of yourself to make the people around you better. So that the initiative, the business, the nonprofit, whatever it is you’re leading can have its greatest opportunity for success. 

Janet:

Well done.

Jeremy:

I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about that. It’s a, it’s such a big topic and leadership is so terribly important and yet I don’t find that there are a lot of really simple definitions for it out there. You know, I once did a, did an exercise where I was doing a, I did a workshop on leadership and I took a picture of my bookshelf and showed I think at that time, like 20 or 30 different books on leadership and showed the results of a, of a Google search on leadership and how many millions of results for leadership definition. So, you know, leadership has to be a very personal thing as well. You’ve got to find your own style. We oftentimes in our culture, we mistake a dictator for a leader because we think that a leader has to be that loud, boisterous forceful person who jumps out and takes charge and says, let’s go, here’s what we’re going to do. The leadership looks and sounds differently. And so each of us has to find our own authentic leadership style, our own voice and lead that way, that ensuring that style and that voice matches with those who we’re trying to lead. 

Janet:

That’s right. That’s right. 

Jeremy:

So, you know, one of the things that you absolutely are an entrepreneur, and I’ve always felt that from you. So I’m glad that you know, it’s wonderful to hear you confirming that you, you’ve known this for years and you’re feeling it. Too many people don’t embrace the fact that they’re an entrepreneur because maybe they don’t have a business degree from a prestigious university or you know, they haven’t been mentored by someone from Silicon Valley. They don’t think maybe they’re an entrepreneur. One of the things within entrepreneurship, and I think our culture, in general, does a really poor job preparing people for life. We teach that failure is not an option, right? You can win at all costs. Failure’s not an option. Whatever it takes. If I have to work more hours, so be it, I, I can’t lose. We’ve created this misunderstanding of what failure actually is in an entrepreneurial circles, especially the more modern, progressive entrepreneurial circles where best practices are being set and practiced. We know that failure is a terrific teacher if we’re open to learning the lessons. Right? And so from our conversation conversations, way back, our conversation today, you’ve mentioned some of the areas where you’ve made mistakes or failed or screwed up or you know, we can use whatever words. If you would take a moment and talk about failure and maybe something that you’ve done in the past, mistake you’ve made that might be called a failure. And what did you learn from that? How did you move forward from, from that episode and that failure, that mistake?

Janet:

Well probably my relationships within the beginning on how to, I’m recovering myself and trying to be a good manager and relate to other people. You know, I, so I oftentimes approach that, lost my temper, didn’t handle it in the most professional way. I think the key there, whatever failure it happens to be, you have to, as a leader, you have to own up to it and be held accountable. Always self-check, always self-evaluate first before. And you can’t be the one to cast blame, you know? And there might be a lot of reasons why you do things or not do things, but there’s really no excuse for poor behavior or immature behavior. And so what have I learned? I’ve learned how to nurture relationships. I’ve had to learn that I, what kind of leader did I want to be? What kind of company did I want to be? And then just fashion myself after that. I’ve had to recognize that and allow room for people to grow and I didn’t know everything. I need to be open to change. I needed to be open to hear other people’s perspectives and be okay, even though I was the owner and the leader per se. But be okay with saying, you know, that’s a good point. You’re right. But then on the same, I hear, I hear what you’re saying, but you also have to be strong enough to say, well, when you have your business, you can do it that way. But for right now, this is my business and we’re going to do it this way. And that’s what one of my mentors said. He said, you know, you may have a good way of doing it and it may be, you know, a better way to you, but we’re going to do it my way and this way.

So I’ve had to I’ve known about, my biggest thing was, is has been about relationships. You know, I’ve, I’ve done some damage. But then I’ve been able to forgive myself and you can’t help if the other person chooses not to forgive. But all I can do is look at my regrets in my life, Jeremy and failures can sometimes be regrets, but they happen and you have to look them straight in the eye. This is what it is. Yes. I own up to it and move on, you know, and that’s, that’s been the strength, you know, of what I feel like that I’ve been able to go forward is the ability to self-check, self-evaluate, not own everything that’s not mine. I’m not going to carry my baggage. And their’s, too. Does that make sense?

Jeremy:

It does. There’s a book out there, it’s called The One-Minute Manager Meets the Monkey. 

Janet:

Oh, I hadn’t heard of that one. 

Jeremy:

Yeah. It’s part of that whole One-Minute Manager series. And you know, part of it is about baggage and you know, hey, that’s not my monkey. I’m not carrying that.

Janet:

That’s exactly right. That’s right. And then, you know, and just, it is what it is. You know, this happened. it is a regret. I wish it didn’t happen, but I’m just going to move forward. I’m not going to let that be the final thing in my life. I’m not going to let it define where I go from here. 

Jeremy:

So, you know, too often we think, we feel like in our, in our culture, when someone makes a mistake, they internalize it and believe that because they have made a mistake that they are a mistake because they have failed, that they are a failure. And we really need to begin to separate those two things. You know, a failure or a mistake or that’s an act. Human beings are not, failures are not mistakes due to their actions, right?

Janet:

It’s a trap that we can fall into. And we have to, we have to learn who to believe. Are we going to believe the story that’s told about us? Are we going to believe that this situation defines who I am or are we going to believe who God says I am? And that comes about in your, your part of your journey is to always be self-checking and self-evaluating and, and learn. You know, what you’re all about. You know, what is your purpose for doing this? And, and for being here because we all have one. And, and just learn who to listen to and learn the right voices to believe. And listen to has been my, and, and learn to take it through a filter, you know, and, and, and move on.

Jeremy:

Could you a little bit about various people in your circle? How important has it been for you to have people outside of yourself to talk to and bounce ideas off of or come alongside you at different points along your journey? 

Janet:

It’s been, it’s been key there and, and consequently my clients, there are two that I can, three actually, that I can pinpoint that I look at them and they have their businesses have grown. They’ve been in business for a long time. They’re not old, you know, I’m older than they are. And, and that’s another thing, you know, and I’m, I’m older, I’m 62 and I kind of, I’m into my zone now in the early stage of my life and it’s never too late, I’m saying, you know, it’s never too late, you know, to, to jump on and do what you’ve been wanting to do all your life and feel like you’re too old. You can have an impact. But I look to them, I look at them, I watched them just as say, Blue-J employees maybe watching me, I watched those people who I look up to, I see how they do things, how they handle issues, how calm they are in maybe emergency situations. And I’ve learned how to do that. That’s really a key thing. I’ve learned how to not react but to sit back and contemplate and not be on the so sudden to make a decision that it’s okay to just sometimes let things just happen, you know, naturally and to not always be the decision-maker. Put it off on say some of my some of Blue-J’s employees. I don’t want always to say my, my, my, Blue-J employees. Okay, let’s look at this situation and that’s, you helped me decide. What do you think could have, this could be handled best. But so I look at them and seek advice when it comes to making some decisions that I have to make. And because I respect them, they, their businesses have, have just grown in the last eight years that I’ve been involved with them and they have a long track record and they don’t mind at all sharing with me. Some insight that they have, but what most important, Jeremy, that I get from them, all three of them, that they empathize with where I am, and they may have been in for 20 years, but they still have the same struggles as me, a business in business for eight or in the beginning, two or three. But they know that’s where they’re supposed to be doing what they’re supposed to be doing. And so they keep on going, you know, and stronger than they ever have been before. But we, you know, the biggest problem any company has, and I think that they were, I would tell you the, are the employees. 

Jeremy:

Sure. 

Janet:

And so, you know that’s, that’s relational I think. So I’ve learned a great deal just by watching and, and being, you know, what I think a key here is being vulnerable. 

Jeremy:

Absolutely. Transparency and vulnerability are two key traits of great leadership.

Janet:

Right. And see that gets lets people say, oh well you don’t have it all together. Well, I, I don’t, and I, you know what, I’m not afraid to let it be known. You know, I struggle too, and I have these fears. I have these concerns, but I’m not, I got someone that I can go to that understands, and that allows me to be vulnerable. You know, that’s, you got to find those people that allow you to be vulnerable and that they’re safe and that they won’t use whatever you share in your vulnerable state against you in the future.

Jeremy:

On another episode, someone talked about finding your tribe. 

Janet:

Oh, okay. 

Jeremy:

Right. Yeah. 

Janet:

I love that.

Jeremy:

There’s a book out there. I think it’s Seth Goden that talks about tribes. Terrific book. 

Janet:

I like that.

Jeremy:

I don’t want to keep you here all day. I’ve got a couple more questions I want to want to work through. One is, what would you say to young ladies who may be considering an entrepreneurial venture as well as older ladies who are more mature ladies who are maybe considering an entrepreneurial venture? And I asked this question for a couple of reasons. One is, you know, TV, the media it makes it seem like the entrepreneurial space is, it’s got a, it’s all men or it’s all you know, and that that’s a farce. And you know that you’ve got to be young, you’ve got to be a 20 something and have all the, all the fire under you to go launch a, an entrepreneurial venture. So if you want to take a minute and if you share a message to perhaps any, any young ladies out there or, or mature ladies who are looking for maybe a twilight career, something, something that to transition into, to, to maybe finally step into their entrepreneurial journey.

Janet:

Well, I think in general, and I, I’ve been, I don’t mean to have a strong personality or, but you have to have a sense of strength, confidence, healthy confidence, God-given confidence in who you are. In this world and probably even more so than men because I’m pretty sure, say with confidence that in the beginning, I had such a struggle because with, with relationships, with employees and such because I wasn’t maybe taken seriously, you know, if had it been a male being saying the same thing that I said, I would have been taken more seriously. I feel like that, that maybe that’s a stereotype that I have no misconception. I believe that women, especially teachers, women have women’s struggle with control. And I think if you have a personality, you know that and I think a controlling nature does have something to do with your past, you know, things that you’ve gone through. Abused persons tend to become more controlling because they need to control their environment. It feels safe. All those things make up an entrepreneur. I mean, at least I feel that you have to have a sense of control, you know, and a strong personality, a strong sense of who you are, a risk-taker and adventurous person, you know, and it’s not for cowards. I mean, that’s for sure. And it’s not for everyone. It’s not for everyone.

But if you find yourself having, you just, you want to make a difference in the world. Financially or other avenues, a business, having your own business, being an entrepreneur opens up those doors, opens up those opportunities that you can, that you, the possibilities are endless. They’re up to you. Your return on investment is entirely your choice. What you put into it is what you’re going to get out of and what have you got to lose. You know, if you’re not, it should, life is too short to do something that you don’t want to do. 

Jeremy:

Yeah. You said it earlier that a regret could be a mistake or a failure. And so don’t leave anything. Don’t look, you know –

Janet:

Don’t look, and I wish I could have, I wish I would have an opportunity. I think as John Wooden, some, some famous person has great sayings and one of them was, I’m not sure, but it has to do with something about opportunity. You know, opportunities don’t always come back around, you know, and you need to be able to see some and not be always afraid of the unknown because honestly, being a small business owner is a difficult thing and it is the unknown. But at the same time, you can feel like you’re in your zone and you can’t imagine yourself doing anything else. And I know that that is where I find myself at my late stage in life. But every, I can look back and see how God’s connected all the dots and to lead me to where I am today and where I’m going to the future. So I’ve got no regrets about what I’m doing. The way in which it occurred and started was unfortunate and it made it harder. But that was what I was supposed to, that’s where God met me, where I was and He’s not giving up on me and, and so I can’t give up. And you asked me a few questions back about why didn’t I give up? 

Jeremy:

Yeah. 

Janet:

Okay and I said, God always gave me another job or you know, whatever came through with something, you know, that I needed. But what I had to come to Jeremy was, I guess it’s now been three years ago, I came, I was, was, I had to be resolved within myself that yes, it’s hard, it’s challenging, it’s a tremendous amount of stress, but a lot of that, my circumstances and my situation is not yours or not someone else’s who might want to pick up and take this baton and do the same thing. Can’t gauge your, my experience with yours. So I had to come, I had to be resolved and myself, that is is what I’m supposed to be doing. And if God continues to show me that and provide for me in that, and he continues to make things happen because He’s the God who makes things happen, then I’m not going, He’s depending on me. If He sees something in me and it’s almost too emotional for me to bear to start this and hopefully as I, the vision He’s given me, it’s an amazing vision. And to not just see change. And in Cabarrus County, but see change in other communities and it’s not just about employment, it’s overwhelming. Then I can’t give up on myself. And so I see myself through His eyes, you know? And it doesn’t matter anymore. You know what? As long as I know God’s for me, you know that’s the most important thing.

Jeremy:

Something that’s bigger than yourself – it’s not just about you.

Janet:

Oh my gosh. No, it’s humbling is if that’s a true sign. If this is bigger than me and I see it that way, then it’s not me. It’s God. And I just was listening to a sermon last night, I think it was Jimmy Evans, Pastor Jimmy Evans who said it, and I needed to hear it because I do question sometimes. Am I just doing this for me? Is this true for the wrong reasons? But he said, if God puts a desire, a passion in your heart, and it’s for good for helping people, if you have it, in other words, if you feel it, then it’s from God. So okay, I’m, I’m resolved then. You know, again, I’m going to keep pushing my, I’m going to put big, keep pushing this idea, which is really what I’m doing. I’m selling or pushing or marketing an idea, right? I’m going to keep going because I know what He’s put within me and I know it’s for good. And why wouldn’t it be for Him to help people? Why would it work? 

Jeremy:

Right. 

Janet:

You know? And so that’s kind of, I have to daily do a pep talk and pat myself on the back, keep going, you know, because sometimes Jeremy, it is lonely and don’t let anybody say differently or tell someone else or it is lonely, because sometimes it is just you. 

Jeremy:

Right. 

Janet:

And so I battle with that sometimes, you know, but that’s where you find yourself and you have to just resolve.

Jeremy:

You got to embrace the struggle and, and see it as an opportunity for ongoing growth and development, right? 

Janet:

Right. Well, you said it really well. Very well.

Jeremy:

But you know, you’ve, you’ve said so many wonderful things and I know that there’s, there’s a lot more that we could pull out and so maybe I can have you back on as a guest again and we can dig into some more of these things. You know, I’ve loved that in the meantime, you know, you’ve got, you’ve got a really cool business and the whole business and the box concept is, is I love it and there may be some people listening who want to learn more. So how can people learn more about you and the work that you’re doing there with Blue-J?

Janet:

They can first we have a chat form that they can go on our website, Blue-J and that’s blue. The color blue, the letter J, which blue stands for autism awareness. J for Janet, no reference to the bird cleaning franchise.com. And there’s a chat form that they can go in and ask questions and I’ll respond also by the, you know, again, going to the website, read about us, you know, doing the contact form, you know, find out my, you can call me and I’ll be more than happy. You know, this is one of my favorite subjects is to talk about this and my grandchildren. I seriously, I have, you can, I hope that it comes off that I do have a passionate about what I’m doing.

Jeremy:

If someone doesn’t feel your passion, they need to go to the doctor immediately.

Janet:

It just is naturally, comes off, you know, and I desire to share that with other people and help other people.

Jeremy:

Well, I would encourage anyone on the call on the, on listening to this and then watching when the video comes out, reach out to Janet, learn more, do your own research, but reach out to her and you know, learn more about what she’s doing. And if you have an interest in potentially bringing the Blue-J franchise to your community, then you should definitely reach out and learn more.

Janet, I love what she’s doing and who she is and her heart and I love the business and what it’s doing and I encourage you to learn more. So I appreciate you being on today, Janet. And you know, we’ll have to catch up again offline and possibly have you back on as a guest if you grace me with your presence again.

Janet:

I’d love to do that. Thank you, Jeremy, so much. 

Jeremy:

Absolutely. So that’s all for this episode of the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission. We hope that you have been inspired by something you heard today because together, we are the change. Tune in next time as we dig into the story of another hero and learn what they do, how they do it, and most importantly, why they do what they do. Take care. Stay encouraged, and we’ll look forward to seeing you next time on the Heroes of Change podcast from EPIC Mission.

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